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Written by hahostolze on Monday, 04 February 2013 10:53

This is not the sort of article you might expect from me. A nice, well written, positive (some say naive, some say Arsene Knows Best) article on a club not doing so well. Nor will it be some vague attempt of mine to seem tactically astute. Today I want to talk about something that has bothered me for a long time. It is something that will engage, and be relevant to, all Arsenal fans. It is noticeable in almost every paper, on every footballing website, and all day long on twitter. It is this notion that Arsenal fans, by and large, consist of these distinct yet homogenous groups of people, by whose association our identity as Gooner is formed. It pis*es me off. And today I hope to dissect it, but if not, at least discuss it, and hopefully change a few people’s warped views on the matter.

For the last week or two I have spent most of my day on twitter and reading articles of all kinds on football but mainly our beloved football club, mainly because I am once more in the unlucky realm of single people. And whilst the divides and the media rhetoric have been around for much longer than any of us seem to appreciate, things are getting worse. Gooners are, much more than any group of fans I could discern, a group that are being spoken for, more and more, and in more subtle ways than before. From the Adrian Durhams and the other morons on cheap media to the tabloid journos seeking a new thrill, the enemies of old, we have gone to the lengths of Arsenal fans being put into groups, from AKB to WOB, from positive to negative to plain cynical; we have big bloggers (with massive followings and as such, massive impact) becoming more and more negative; we have the so called spokespersons for the fans making a mockery of the entire principle of spokespersons and we have the insane former Gunners and famous Gooners, the Piers Morgans, the Niall Quinns and the other off centred individuals. All of a sudden (or perhaps gradually, but the first remark sounds better) we are the most fragmented and least realistically represented bunch of supporters in the nation. And it has to stop.

If you look at the papers or other mainstream media these days, the way Arsenal seems a scapegoat is something that could rouse some ire, but that is not the issue today.  Right now what worries me is how we have lost our voice, our individual personality. In the papers even classy journalists seem to rely on the (to many) biased views espoused by so called spokespersons like Tim Payton (who we will get to later) or the Black Scarf people instead of seeing Arsenal fans as a bit more than that. On the TV the negative banners and songs, no matter how few, seem to get more attention than any number of songs in support of both players and club. This sort of behaviour always gets exacerbated at clubs with a less than successful season and I can fully agree ours is of that category. Yet it does not merit the spin of a club in crisis, nor of a club whose entire fanbase is baying for blood.

The realism, the rationality, is gone. On my twitter timeline I have hundreds of intelligent (mostly), interesting Gooners with the ability to think for themselves. There is an insane amount of boxing people in, of making a person into one kind of fan, yet there are also all these individuals who criticise when needed, who relate to issues when applicable, and who support the club and its staff whenever possible, simply because of their love for the club. These are the Gooners I know. The same sort of people I spoke to last time I went over to London for a glorious day supporting The Arsenal (and that is another debate I’d love to host, that of foreign fans being genuine, but another time perhaps). There is so much more to 80% of reasonable fans than AKB or WOB, so much more than people praying for new transfers or people just praying we don’t play Santos or Squillaci. Yet I feel that side of our fans is insanely misrepresented.

It scares me when an entire fanbase is slowly (and the intelligent, reasonable people I speak of are the last to go) becoming a divided group without any individual thought. If a big name with a lot of followers tweets something, going against that is blasphemy. When a negative comment is made, someone is Wenger Out, or just negative, or plain stupid. The same goes for those of us who are a little too optimistic. The middle ground is lost. This is very rare amongst football followings and shows the schizophrenic nature of Gooners at this moment. Gooners were some of the first to the internet, to blogging and social media. I remember a few years ago that eight out of the twenty most popular footballing websites in England were Arsenal related. Now to me some of the big blogs have reached (or even surpassed) the influence of supporters groups such as the AST, the BSM and the AISA. And the spin in recent times has not been great. Too often the editorial line is closer to the venom being spewed by those who aren’t worthy than the enlightened principles being espoused not too long ago.

On twitter the abuse gets more personal as well. Disagreeing is no longer allowed on any fundamental level or you get a label placed on you. Some, admittedly, place that label on themselves. Yet one remark will often be interpreted differently by people and cause the typifying of a person way beyond that persons intentions. I would bet that pretty much 90% of Gooners see themselves as neutral, as Gooners whose opinions on the club are varied (if most certainly not always nuanced, as I can attest to) and not to be determined as one specific direction. This reactionary labelling is visible on all levels, from twitter to blogs to bigger media and even in the stadium (and often outside it). Whilst I personally enjoyed hearing that the people from the ‘Wenger Out’ banner got themselves into some trouble, a support should never have to turn on its own members. That is a fundamental part of the freedom of speech and independent thought.

Independent thought. Now there is a notion we seem to lose. The intent of this article was never really to inform, for most well-thinking Gooners will have noticed similar things in recent times. Nor was it my intention to push my own thoughts and opinions on the club and how it is run down your throats. My intention is to make you think about how you see the club and how you can, as a human, see the club in your own specific way. If it turns out your views entirely match those being espoused by a specific group (even though these views are often vague, abstract and inconsistent) then that is fine. But otherwise don’t let yourself feel spoken for. Don’t be pulled in.

I am writing this at the moment just after the transfer window. The AST have just released an interesting yet hilarious statement on that same transfer window. This statement was an easy score at the clubs expense, without the full facts being laid bare. They have been portrayed in quite a few media as the representatives of Arsenal fans. Yet strangely I find myself, and most of the people I know, disagreeing or shaking their heads. The same goes for their spokesperson. Whilst I have no personal qualms with him, and I don’t doubt he is an affable, intelligent and very capable leader (nor am I intent on singling out one person), his ability to make his opinion into our opinion and his ability to spout bullsh*t quotes, alienates him from fans.

That such a man is still quoted as spokesperson of Arsenal fans is a massive fault of by the media. Not to mention this notion that those who weren’t in the stadium supporting the club were ‘Muppets’, a few weeks back. This reveals an agenda, something which a Supporters Trust, inherently aimed at improving the supporters influence within the club and the way we interact, should absolutely refrain from in that area. Their attitude to Kroenke and ticket prices is the way you would expect, but large parts of their views aren’t. The Muppets incident, whilst just a slip of the tongue, was a Jen Chang like moment to me, and shows perhaps even a disrespect to the fans that make up the AST and indeed the club.

The people of the AST deserve their opinion, naturally, but not at the detriment of others, especially if you have an position like that. A spokesperson (or group) who speaks for a very small group of people is a notion that shouldn’t be. That doesn’t take away their full right to their opinion, and in the words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall ‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’. Same goes for them, but only if they represent the actual majority of fans.

This is not intended to crap on the AST. Their fanshare initiative is one I am remarkably fond of and I am still intent on being a member and helping converse on the important subjects. But the notion of being a representation of the fans should perhaps be expanded into a more demographic, democratic representation and not on the whims of the few people who actually run it and are most involved. Their input and effort is essential, but the resulting statements often rankle even with AST members and with Arsenal fans. Considering the AST is the only group of its kind as far as Arsenal is concerned, the views should mirror the majority of fans. At this moment they don’t.

Other movements often associated with Gooners and representing the opinions of Gooners include the Black Scarf Movement. I myself have to admit that until recently I was not aware of exactly the role they fulfil, but I am now. And I must admit that personally, some of their ideas on football are excellent. However they do not fully conform to mine and as such I would not want to be associated with them. That is something personal but essentially part of my ability to choose my own opinion. If the BSM were to be considered representatives of Gooners (as they have been, by media, especially around the time of their marches or other protests) I would hate to be lumped in with them, no matter how valid some of their points are. In fact, they don’t represent Gooners any more or less than Piers Morgan, Tony Adams or Alan Davies. Or you. They just happen to be louder and in bigger  numbers. Don’t ever feel (and I know some do) obliged to agree simply because they supposedly represent us. Instead, make up your own mind.

If this all sounds a bit idealistic and like we are talking about a revolution, realise that partly, it is. Partly it is hyperbole. But Gooners should say what they want to say, as long as they can back it up and explain way. Don’t feel like callers on TalkSport or BBC 606 represent you. Don’t accept the Daily Mail using Tim Payton and Adrian Durham to paint a picture of how Arsenal is doing and how we should feel. Read blogs, articles and your friend’s tweets, but never accept any one thing as the whole truth. Organisations have many uses and are often setup for the good of fans but also often seem to forget the opinions of the majorities of these fans. It is not always their fault they are portrayed as representing all of us, but they still are. Joining an organisation like that is an excellent idea, as long as you use it to voice your opinion. Which is exactly the function of twitter and blogs such as this one. The mainstream media like talking heads and generalising, and I implore you all to be different from that. And that doesn’t mean being positive and pro-Wenger like me: some of the best rants I have seen have been on the other side of the debate. If someone wants to be ‘Wenger Out’, and can explain why, they have every right to be.

I’ve mentioned this unique Arsenal position. And it is uncanny. We seem to have been the first to colonize the internet, we seem to have more people on twitter than any other group of supporters, and yet for some reasons I have never seen a group of supporters as misrepresented. We can blame the mainstream media for laziness, we can blame the supporters groups for not representing us evenly, but eventually every person needs to do their piece. I was personally very upset with this pervading notion that Arsenal fans are all neatly placeable into these very narrow boundaries. But I realise why it is. It is up to every one of you to think for yourself. Gooners have always been good at that. From when Dennis Bergkamp was supposed to be a flop we knew better. From when we were 11 points behind ManU in the winter of 1997 and were written off entirely. Or when we trusted in a bunch of young players in 2007 and nearly won the title. Since then it has all gone downhill. Fans seem to be a small part of the equation, the people who speak for them are bigger. Things aren’t going great at Arsenal Football Club, but neither are they going great within the Arsenal fanbase. I truly believe we will benefit both by all of us thinking for ourselves, making our own opinion count, and making sure we are truly represented. That is where progress lies.

Don't forget to follow the author on Twitter: @hahostolze

Comments (88)

  • hahostolze  - Tweet me
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    If you want some interaction with me, tweet me... Or if you don't have twitter, leave a comment.
  • Mikel McCarteta
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    What is most scary is that some now seem to hate the club and want us to fail jsut to prove a point.
  • thenry  - my Arsenal
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    good article
    there seems to be a misconception in the media and also by a few blogs such as le grove that everyone at Arsenal fc are so unhappy and this term WE WANT OUR ARSENAL BACK? I dont get that what Arsenal? the one of the Geroge graham era or terry neil? which one? because by far the best era I have experienced in my time as a Arsenal fan is the WENGER era and I have been a season ticket holder of ARSENAL FC since 1976.

    there seems to be a vendetta against Arsenal that only us not winning a trophy for 8 years is bad the rest of the teams apart from the sugar daddy doped team plus manshytes who have not won a major trophy for decades does not seem to get mentioned at all.
    infact the oiks from down the raod are lauded for coming 4th twive in the last decade and everton who are always rubbish are somehow an example of a well run club.

    Its a good thing we have a board and manager who are thick skinned and not easily influenced by a bunch of minority MORONS who think the club is run badly and that we should be signing every player linked with us by whom i dont know and when that does not materialize its viewed as the club showing a lack of ambition.

    I ignore the morons as most us who go the games are more then happy imo this is the best time to be a GOONER if they had come and stood on the north bank in the 70`s and 80`s they would know what dire really was.
    ps that infamous know it all le grove never publishes and posts that go against him there by giving the impression that every Arsenal fan hates Wenegr and wants him out when the reality is they are in a very small minority and that most of us are happy with the way the club is being run and Wenger really does know best.
  • hahostolze
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    Very true, both of you make good points. I am scared too by the Gooners who seem to hate the club and want us to fail just to be proven right. Gladly they are a small minority.
  • MeanLean
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    Top post dude, enjoyed it.

    I am of the opinion that the way people choose to support a team is different to how it used to be.

    I get the feeling that supporting is more about the individual fan rather than the team. Rather than Arsenal vs the opposition, it is more fan vs Arsenal. What has Arsenal done for me? If I am not happy with my product then I can unload on it as much as I please, because after all 'we pay the highest ticket prices' which isn't actually the case based on individual games but has been spun that way.

    I may be way off but that is how I see it, it is a reflection of society but I am drifting a little off the actual main topic. I have engaged myself into one too many debates with others but in the words of our manger, I try to take a little bit the distance these days.

    At the end of the day, we have all chosen to associate ourselves to Arsenal FC. Looking at it in the purest sense, the club do not owe us a damn thing. The same way that if we decided to choose Bath FC as our team they wouldn't owe us anything either. It is all our choice, we choose to pay our money or not, it is not tax. Therefore we should try and extract whatever happiness we can and not let others drag down your enjoyment of your chosen support.

    Some Gooners cannot be happy if at the end of a season we have not won a trophy. I try to enjoy the little Santi turns in tight spaces, the Wilshere surging runs, the last ditch Koscielny tackles. I pay less attention to the goals conceded or whatever negatives that may happen on the day. That is just me and I will not get into anymore arguments with people trying to make me support the club differently.
  • rizal
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    Your article is too damn long :)
  • hahostolze
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    Excellent points there ML with the team vs me, rather than us vs opponents. People really are like women according to Eddie Murphy: 'what have you done for me lately'?
  • MeanLean
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    Haha that is classic. I have watched Delirious far too many times in my lifetime.

    They want half Eddie!
  • Luca Helvetica
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    Totally agree with this blog, and I think it hurts debate on subjects. I have typed out many a tweet and deleted as I have thought it's not worth the hassle.

    On the spokesperson issue I have often thought I want to join an supporters organization and if I were to I would lean towards AISA but neither AISA or AST really manage the media game the best.

    AISA, I don't know any of the individuals involve which I like, none of them are trying to have their names up in lights, but as a detriment I don't hear what they are doing, what they have achieved (but this could be because the papers don't use their press releases). AST on the other hand I hear a lot more about their aims but also a lot more about individuals, and as a result feels a lot more like an Old Boys Club and a closed circle. On the Spokesperson role I would much prefer if this was an elected position, as if you are going to speak on behalf of the society and be held up as such I think the society should vote for that. I also wonder if the current incumbent is holding AST back and they would have more members if he wasn't such a polarizing figure (and I do realise that he maybe a nice guy in real life etc)

    But to sum up yes I hate labels and wish I could debate without being put in a box
  • hahostolze  - RE Luca
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    Well exactly. I refrained from detailing my critique of the supporters groups too much because I might easily be wrong and I don't know quite enough to do that in the needed depth. But as you say, even an organisation with less things to contend with like the AISA gets drowned out by others.
    THe labels I hate but the labels are now so ingrained that everyone seems to use them.
  • Luca Helvetica  - Re: Hahostolze
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    I held back a bit as I haven't been into it too much, but it does seem to be whoever shouts the loudest gets the most publicity and that in turn leads to us all being grouped in that.

    Like the survey was a couple of hundred fans or something but gets held up as being representative. You could do an alternative survey on here and get more responses etc
  • Scravaldio  - Its the ownership
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    Great article as things have been blown out of preportion and I am one of the last people to criticise the club. But things have gone too far this time I was a stern pro Wenger fan until Kroneke took over. Before Kroneke there was a chance of success as AW would be given the means to at least compete.
    Not anymore Kroneke has never put a penny more than his shareholdings into any of his sports clubs. He is the worst owner on the planet. We have consistently sold our best playing staff to make up for a year on year drop in operational profits and we are then lied to and told
    its for footballing reasons.
    The club currently can't even tell the truth about attendance let alone anything important. You think we have lost our media voice? HA we don't have a voice at the club at all. They don't care about the fans they wouldn't allow us to keep making more from player sales then we buy as this has led to the worst Arsenal side I have seen in years if they did. Arsene is the best paid manager in the league on 7mill although he is the least ambitious saying top four is a trophy and any excuse he can find at hand that day to justify his statement.
    Don't think because they don't take dividends that somehow kroneke and his lap dogs aren't taking money because they are taking huge wages including kroneke.
    So lets look at the facts: Fact 1 Our club cannot tell us the fans the truth. They find it impossible in fact its got to the point where you can actually predict what there going to say and when. Oh and watch the club make a decent purchase just before season ticket renwel time as we do every year.
    Fact 2 Our club is sitting on a huge sum of OUR money and refuses to spend any of it on the squad instead choosing to spend it on the highest paid CEO in sports in the country and the highest paid manager. AW is on 135,000 a week a sum he will pay himself but not any of his players, hmm interesting.
    Fact 3 Our owner keeps going out and spending huge amounts of money on himself. kroneke has recently spent 150 m on a ranch in colorado and two shopping malls. He never watches the match doesn't even like 'soccer ' as he would call it and has no intention of ever making us a success ever.
    Fact 4 Our commercial department is a joke. AW never shuts up about sustanability right? So we have the fourth highest wage bill followed by a drop every year in operational profits which means the clubs assets are being sold off to make up for there incompetence.
    This includes land and players and basically means that they are underinvesting in our core buisness and using what little assets we have to over inflate the value of there shares by making a profit while sacrificing our core buisness. We are being asset stripped in a horrible way and from every direction. This is the complete opposite to sustanable, we are being mugged off again.
    I could go on as there are even more things wrong but these are the main issues so in my opinon there is no point in getting rid of AW until kroneke has been bought out as he is asset stripping the club.
    Then if AW still won't budge and invest in order to compete (i'm not asking for silly spending but at least within our means not make a profit as a sign of faith in the fans). Then he has to go also which really pains me but if I had underperformed in my job for eight years I wouldn't have lasted and for 7 million we deserve a lot more. Soz for the rant but you think that things are ok and that the media are somehow making it all up then your deeply wrong as the rot has set deep in the club and only usmanov can come in and clean it up.
  • hahostolze  - RE Luca
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    Yeah, remember when Squid did that survey in the summer? Masses of responses. Different subject but clearly a good platform.
  • John  - Who?
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    I expect the vast majority of Arsenal supporters have never heard of AST, BSM or AISA, my football mate who has been a silver member (ticket registration scheme) much longer than I certainly hasn't. Only because I like to read a bit about Arsenal on the internet during breaks that I have heard of them. That Tim Payton character certainly doesn't represent my views.
  • thenry
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    savravalido
    lol @ kronke being the worst owner, do u even know what you are talking about?
    another stupid fan who is so ignorant of the facts.
    the CLUB has got itself ready for FFP
    all of your points are so stupid its beyond belief
    who tod you the club are sitting on all YOUR MONEY?
    the club is a private entity it is not owned by the fans but by shareholders why dont you stump up some money and buy the club if you dont like the way its being run.

    amazes me how you think fans like you can run the club better or know bettr then the professional who run it currently.
    out of curiosity what is your profession and are you at the top of it? if not then i suggest you get on with proving to the world what a super star business person you are instead of telling BILLIONAIRES like kronke what its all about.
  • GunnerX  - Arsenal PLC
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    The split in the fanbase might be better understood when compared and contrasted with the relationship between the main shareholder of the club, hence I'm not at all surprised that the media see us as easy pickings.

    From a systemic view point the fans are merely playing out that divergence.

    Mind you when board members sarcastically thank supporters for 'paying attention to their affairs', it really doesn't help.
    Joking aside, the club could be doing much more in terms of PR.
  • GunnerX
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    'shareholders'
  • hahostolze  - RE GunnerX
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    That is a fair point.
  • Bergkamp's The Man  - Goonerholic
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    Really enjoyed and empathised wth your piece. Keep walking on the sunny side and try to encourage a few of the Boo and Bleat Brigade (BBB) over there with you.

    There are a few oases providing a more balanced view of all things Arsenal. May I recommend the excellent Goonerholic for a "drink" when the majority of "us fans" are tearing the club, team and individual players apart just because we are going to finish in the top thee, win one trophy and see Ollie G score twenty goals in his first season at Arsenal.

    Keep the faith.
  • Happy Gooner
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    I am so happy to see that not every gooner has been brainwashed by the idiots that sit around me at Emirates every week that have already decided who gets MOTM and who is our worst player before the game starts. I think we must be the only club where the fans actually want certain players to fail. The funniest thing is when the rumour mills start of who we are going to buy but we dont buy them so many fans slate Arsene Wenger the funniest part being they have probably never heard of the player before and never seen them play! Another MASSIVE point to think about to all the so called fans that want Wenger out and want the club to turn into Man City and by every player that we get linked with but still sing Jack Wilshere's name every week and say he is the best player we have, guess what? We wouldnt have Jack Wilshere if Arsenal was not run the way its run by Wenger! We would be to busy trying to buy some 30 million midfielder the newspaper link us with rather than allowing players like Wilshere to come through who actualy love the club!
  • Scravaldio  - Interesting point thenry
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    If you must know thnry I am an international civil servant and yes I am an A grade which means I am at the top of my profession but that is besides the point. By your logic no one can vote because they are not politicians and no one can make informed medical decisions about there loved ones because they are not doctors. Have you actually read the FFP rules word for word? Of course you haven't you've blindly believed what Ivan has told you. Well if you've seen PSG and Man city's recent tactics you'll realise that these rules are designed to actually legitmise these clubs spending. The rules do not stop owners from using there own companies to sponser there clubs for crazy money which is actually the whole damn problem. Explain to me then how these rules will help us? From reading them I understood that there are more loop holes then actual rules but if I am wrong and you can state on hear how exactly these rules to stop the oil spending crazyness then please educate me because I can't see it in the rules. Why would they stop when everyone is making so much money? So from what I read you are perfectly happy with the way the club is run 100%? If so good on yer I wish I could say the same but Kroneke is the worst sports owner on the planet. Ask our fellow American sports fans about Kroneke see what they say because I haven't heard a single positive thing about him. If you can back up what you say with facts then I am all ears. Until someone can produce facts then I stick to the reality and what can be proven.
  • Happy Gooner
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    Hey Scravaldio so you are saying that Kroneke is the worst owner because you heard some american sports fans moan , sorry are those facts you are showing us? Sounds like you blindly agree with people you have never met just like you blindly agree Kroneke is the worst owner because a couple of blokes that sit by you at the game said it oh and you probably read it on a forum somewhere!
  • thenry
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    lol scarvalido says it all you are a civil servant someone who has never created wealth.
    you get paid from a TAX POT of the people you obviously know how business works as yopu must have taxed many to death. you know there is a saying in life
    people who work for governments lack the ambition and nous to try their luck out in the business world. technocrats who live off the taxes paid by the likes of KRONKE who are risk takers thats why they are billionaires

    right lets see your points re FFP firstly yes
  • thenry
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    re FFP yes I have read the UEFA document on it and all clubs had to prepare for. that said if clubs like man city and PSG find clever ways to circumvent them is that a reason for Arsenal to do the same?

    another thing have PSG and Man city built new stadiums and paid for their players and salaries from money earnd through the football business or just been handed to them from very rich owners?
    easy to win as has been seen by clubs like chelski and city who for years won nothing and were never title contenders to all of a sudden becoming champions through financial doping any fool can do it that way.
    if you like that method please go and support those teams you will feel better.
    for all the years that I have supported Arsenal we have always been a conservative club its nothing new and fans like you will not change that tradition so think again about fallowing our great club as we dont really need know it all fans like you imo.

    or the other way is raise a billion and buy the club but as I said before as a civil servant you would not know where to start in making money as your salary is paid for by tax payers like Kronke the same kind of people who you have the nerve to criticize.
    i suggest you read a book called THE RISE OF THE TECHNOCRATS its all about parasite civil servants who create nothing yet tell everyone how to run their businesses.
  • Sharpshooter  - Lol
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    "International civil servant". LOL. I'd expect from such a hotshot like Scravalido to be able to spell "Kroenke" correctly. Not "Kroneke", dude. If youwrite about somebody, try to find out his name first, Mr. "International civil servant". LOL.
  • Jane
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    As I like to put it...I'm a Gooner and nothing more. I live, breathe, love, support Arsenal. I don't want to come under a label of any type of fan there is out currently. I'm just simply a Gooner. We all have our own set of ideas, opinions etc and that's fair enough/ When the team is doing brilliantly, I'll cheer them on, even when they aren't. But I'll still criticise them when needed, whilst giving all my support as well.

    I respect Wenger and the board as a whole, and will always thank them for giving me such an amazing club to follow and be a part of.

    I really think since the whole social media has come into play as a fan people are scared of saying their opinion in-case it starts a whole different kind of argument in itself. People have gotten followings, and think they're the voice for all of us, when really they're not.

    I remember a few years ago at an Armoury signing, when I met Bob Wilson, I was in a que with of course another Gooner who was about 8 years my senior. My family, and theirs were the only people in the queue at the time as we were early, so to keep ourselves entertained we started discussing football and Arsenal. Of course, they had a different opinion to me on certain areas of the club, but we had a civil, well-spoken conversation about it. There was no swearing, calling each-other names or anything, infact we had a laugh about it, and then moved onto another topic. At the end of the day, nobody has the same opinion as the other. You just have to learn to respect their opinion, just as they have to respect yours without insults. I miss those days when fans could be like that with each-other.

    Now all I see is people calling each-other a "cunt" or whatever when someone has a difference of opinion. I've seen it a lot of people I follow, and respect be called such names just because they want their own voice and to not be put into groups.

    But anyway, enough of my rambling! Great post, and I really do agree with you. We, as fans, need to let our opinion be heard from all aspects, mindsets etc but agree to disagree when it differs from ours and respect their opinion.

    That's my two cents.
  • Anonymous
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    Agreed And I admit I am a bit negative at times myself.
    But I think it is the price to be paid for the great success of the late 90s early 2000s. Had Arsenal always been a mid table team that sometimes came close then things would be about the same so as far as the press goes it would be no story there.

    Also Many many arsenal supporters today became Supporters during that great era. And before you go oh we don't need those fair weather types anyway. A fair weather fan is really one that Changes their support to who ever is winning. But even those that complain about the team are not looking to switch their support to another club. They just got used to what was Arsenal's equivalent of the Real Madrid Galácticos era. (only Arsenal did not go raiding other top clubs to build their team like RM did)

    And many also started to support the team because of the style and flare displayed by that wonderful group or players. Now if you live in north london and Arsenal is your local team well I suppose you would be a Arsenal Supporter no matter what and that type of fan is great too.

    But I am not from London or Even England for that matter but many like myself actually made a choice to be a Arsenal Supporter over many many other top clubs I live in the US and have been a supporter since the 1980s and my support only grew stronger over the years. I guess it started out because of association with other supporters I was playing football with in collage who where actually from london. But later it was certain players at the club (Bergkamp for one) but then it became so much more.
    Now I can't even imagine supporting any other club I may watch a another match and route for a US international to do well or to enjoy a well played game but I don't get too involved I do not hurt inside if ether team is winning or losing. But put on a Arsenal match and I turn into another person I become a nervous reck or a screaming idiot I do not need a whole seat because I only use the edge of it
    My whole day can be tuned from bad to great by a win or ruin my mood for the rest of the week until the next match if they lose.
    And if you catch me on a bad day yes I may sound like I hate all things at Arsenal their manager is shit the club is run like carp and the players are a bunch of worthless wankers not worth the wages they are earning. BUT that is NOT how I really feel at all I am just overly emotional at that moment to even be honest with myself as the next match you will find me at the pub watching on the edge of my seat.

    So All we really want is: One Stop selling all our best players every year and Start building some consistent form and Two maybe find a few Bergkampesque players that are again just amazing and a honor to watch every week.
    And lastly is it too much to ask to help lower my blood pressure a bit by cutting down on the defensive blunders and missed chances a bit.

    from a US GOONER always.
  • dan  - Gooner's
    avatar
    GOONER'S, a word used by tottenham fans describing the arsenal hooligan element through he 70's and part of the 80's, that's what GOONERS are, the rest of the arsenal fan base should start describing themselves as gunners or arsenal fans, gooner's is a misused word, stop calling yourselves it. :roll:
  • dan
    avatar
    oh, and another thing, blame wenger for this divide
  • DAVID KIRIMI
    avatar
    Thumbs up bro,you a true gunner
  • jd  - Kroenke
    avatar
    People criticise Kroenke because he is allegedly a bad owner. I don't totally understand this. Arsenal are a good team with lots of quality players. We are well run in the sense that we are profitable have good revenue streams (which will improve dramatically in the next few years now the stadium and kit sponsorship deals can be renewed) and are very stable. The whole point of Kroenke buying our club was because it has the ability to be a well run club and be competative and make him money. He is a sports tycoon who specialises in making money and that is why he bought arsenal. If I was a billionaire I would probably not want to invest in anything that wasn't likely to make me money and I bet most of you wouldn't either. He didn't buy the club out of love for it or becuase he wanted a play thing and this makes him more responsible than a lot of owners out there. The sad thing about football is that just having a well run club that is profitable does not mean that you can be as competative these days. When there are clubs out there that are run irresposibly and at massive losses so they can buy the best players in he world and pay them obscene ammounts of money what chance does a club like arsenal have? Why should we sacrifice our sustainablilty and stability to try and chase these irresposible clubs. Financial doping is harming our sport and sadly it seems as if the victims will not likely be the clubs with all the oil money but others like the lower league clubs going bust to compete and clubs like ours who strive to do the right thing rather than put ourselves at risk to attempt to win a trophy. Arsenal football club is about entertaining people and bringing them joy and we would all love a trophy but it also means more than that and it needs to be looked after. It seems as if while Kroenke is here it will be stable and sustainable and that is only a good thing in my opinion.
  • paspartu
    avatar
    lmao at the civil servant...why dont you go get us a few beers so that we enjoy laughing at you while we ridicule your facts

    fact 1 : in what business context or any other industry environment does the principle company come out telling the truth to its customers? does nike tell the truth abnout where their shoes are manufactured? does cargill let the us public know how they got the middle east grain trade contracts of affreightment? do shell and bp tell the truth about octanes and the likes? does chelsea and roman abramovic come out telling the truth? do the glazers with their soros deals? what about madrid and bank de santader? who the hell are you to demand that the owner/principal talks to you on an equal and transparent basis ?

    fact 2 unless you bring me a document with the actual balance of the cash you say we have and sitting there, your statement is false. why did you call it a fact ?

    fact3 ...im sorry i didnt realise stan needs to ask you about his new ranch. did he purchase that ranch with arsenal;s money? you have proof for that? oh talking out your arse again... in which book did you read/see that the owner will invest his PERSONAL wealth so that fools like you and me feel happy in the stands and get our confirmation about club;s ambition?

    fact4 if the incompetence is on the behalf of the marketing department why the hell you blaming the manager who is forced to sell his best players because of the fuck ups made by the arsenal commercial team?

    you clueless servant...stick to your day job and dont talk football, especially about arsenal..way too complicated for the simple minded gloryseeking idiots polluting our wonderful stadium ....... 8)
  • paspartu
    avatar
    why not blame your ownself dan? you the one who turned against him and lost your faith :wink: he hasnt, he is still there despite all the odds of the game and the faults/limitations of the company fighting for arsenal with whatever hes got....what are you doing as a fan? moaning? .....

    youre the one who chooses to listen to the media b/s slating us all the time.

    youre the weak minded supporter who hasnt got the spine to support the club on what it embarked to do in 2006.

    youre the one who has allowed taunts of trophyless years to mess with your opinion on your team/club.

    suddenly the fans want to remove themselves from their resposnibilities.

    HAHASTOLTZE.....MORE PLEASE!!!!!!!! GIVE PAIN TO THE IDIOTS!!!!!!!!
  • Scravaldio  - Ignorance reigns.
    avatar
    Thnry you are showing your ignorance once again which is pretty good going. I am not paid out of tax money my organisation is self financing so no I do not take your tax money in wage. Our organisation makes a profit and rather than give it some rich shareholder it goes to the staff who actually made the money but I am sure you would prefer the money went someone like Kroneke right? I don't work for a government thats why I am an international civil servant and do not pay tax as I am a european resisdent and not working for a specific country so you can shove all your ideas of what civil servants do because you don't have a clue. I suppose all civil servants are bad right? Well lets get back to something you mighht know about, Kroneke is not a great buisness man he married the daughter of the guy who started wallmart. He needed a bank gurantee from the deutch bank in order to actually buy his shares which means he can't actually afford to own the Arsenal shares in the first place. OK lets cut the crap you ALL need to read the Swiss Ramble it is a football financial blog which explains exactly what these crooks are up too and uses facts and figures to prove his case. I agree with what he writes I also read the financial reports of the club and yes what they are doing is asset stripping and until one of you actually comes up with someing other than just insulting someones spelling or civil servants then your just showing that you don't actually have an argument becuase you don't know the full facts. The swiss ramble is great because he takes all the elements you would normally have to read to get the full picture and brings it down in one long but very good finacial review
    If you read this article and still think that it is ok to allow operational profits to keep dropping and therefore have to sell our best players to make up the shortfall then fine. Just make sure you write on here how happy you are with the RVP sale and hey if things stay the way they are then maybe Jack might be sold as well. That will be something to look forward too.
  • paspartu
    avatar
    funny how idiots use the swiss ramble to attack the club, a blogger who is pro-wenger.....

    talk about ignorance huh tax cleric :lol: :lol:
  • paspartu
    avatar
    swiss ramble talks about the sponsosrship deal and how it has affected the profits, with arsenal essentially needing to sell a high profile player to cover the losses.

    this deal was closed before 2006 yet you came here blaming kroenke who wasnt even involved as an owner in any sort of negotiations....he wasnt even at the fucking club back then mate.....

    now youre crying about the rvp deal? lol.....who cares man? he wanted out so fuck him.... we offered him what we could and he said no so why are you crying? did united want to sell ronaldo? did milan want to sell kaka? did juve want to sell zidanne?

    then you take the fuck ups of the sponsiorship deals that were made by the people above wenger and present them as the failures of the manager....

    you're 50 yards offside mate ..... :wink:
  • paspartu
    avatar
    imagine some clueless chap on tax matters walking in your office and calling you a failure and abusing you and telling you how youre doing it all wrong.

    wouldnt you tell him to mind his own business? :wink: what does he know to be suitable or qualified enough to comment on your work ?

    so if i may ...what makes all you doubters behind your pc monitors think youre qualified in football to a level suitable enough to comment on the work of wenger?

    you dont like what you see, or whats on offer ..go somewehre else. you remind me of the idiot customer in a restaurant who walsk inside all mighty with his "customer always right" attitude and doesnt like the food and stands up pulls his pants down and shits on the plate in front of the other customers to express his disatisfaction while lecturing the chef and the manager on how the food should be prepared. this customer cant even boil an egg and wants to give lectures to chefs with diplomas about how to cook meals.

    oh its the psychological dependence on your football team i hear you say? cant just switch off? why not? what is more important as a priority in your life? your profession? your family? or whether arsenal wins the double ....?

    pay only if you can afford it and agree with what is happening. if you dont agree then simply fuck off instead of coming inside our venue and being a disrespectful cunt. and if you view your expenditure in a ticket as an investment expecting kodak meomments with the trophies as dividents grow the fuck up and realise that supporting a football team is a resicprocal relationship. you give misery you receive pain, you give smiles and maybe the boys in red and white return it back with moments of joy.

    all you muppets with complaints go sort yourselves out in them clinics and ask the shrinks to give you something to moderate this negative outloook you have on arsenal.

    we are fine without you mugs. for too long we have allowed the myopic idiots to shitstorm the club with their personal complexic behaviours . fuck you all.
  • dan
    avatar
    :shock: you mugs are welcome to the club, enjoy the championship with this lunatic incharge, do one thing tho, research the true meaning of being a gooner.
  • MeanLean
    avatar
    Championship? Erm..

    Welcome to the club? What a weird thing to say. I suppose you've never supported Arsenal unconditionally then. Why not take a break until we win a nice shiny trophy for you.
  • porter
    avatar
    All this has done is to confirm that the fan base is split into varying factions. Dan however is correct for those that despise the media you have adopted the title Gooners which was originally a jibe of derision.As I see it the whole project of the new stadium was a vehicle to increase the capital value of the club so that the then shareholders could cash in and line their pockets. A.W was probably sold the idea that in the long run it would benefit the team which it still might do. The wait however for that outcome has been too long and supporters have seen their team slowly erode as we sell our assets to balance the books. One thing we can find agreement on is that we ( the club) have been turned into a soap opera and that it is to the detriment of all of us.
  • WTF  - Drivel
    avatar
    Arsenal Football Club,you know the ACTUAL club doesn't give a shit what kind of SUPPORTER you are as long as you PAY.
    They NEED and would rather have a supporter moan and groan that pays then one who doesn't so knock your sanctimonious "how to be a good gooner" bull shit off because no matter how hard you tried to deny it,that's exactly what it was
    Grow up you fascist,narrow minded,deluded twats.
    ANY type of gooner welcomed should be the headline of your next post if your really want to send out a message your were so desperately trying to advocate.
  • highbury
    avatar
    paspartu
    avatar
    """ imagine some clueless chap on tax matters walking in your office and calling you a failure and abusing you and telling you how youre doing it all wrong.

    wouldnt you tell him to mind his own business? :wink: what does he know to be suitable or qualified enough to comment on your work ?

    so if i may ...what makes all you doubters behind your pc monitors think youre qualified in football to a level suitable enough to comment on the work of wenger?

    you dont like what you see, or whats on offer ..go somewehre else. you remind me of the idiot customer in a restaurant who walsk inside all mighty with his "customer always right" attitude and doesnt like the food and stands up pulls his pants down and shits on the plate in front of the other customers to express his disatisfaction while lecturing the chef and the manager on how the food should be prepared. this customer cant even boil an egg and wants to give lectures to chefs with diplomas about how to cook meals.

    oh its the psychological dependence on your football team i hear you say? cant just switch off? why not? what is more important as a priority in your life? your profession? your family? or whether arsenal wins the double ....?

    pay only if you can afford it and agree with what is happening. if you dont agree then simply fuck off instead of coming inside our venue and being a disrespectful cunt. and if you view your expenditure in a ticket as an investment expecting kodak meomments with the trophies as dividents grow the fuck up and realise that supporting a football team is a resicprocal relationship. you give misery you receive pain, you give smiles and maybe the boys in red and white return it back with moments of joy.

    all you muppets with complaints go sort yourselves out in them clinics and ask the shrinks to give you something to moderate this negative outloook you have on arsenal.

    we are fine without you mugs. for too long we have allowed the myopic idiots to shitstorm the club with their personal complexic behaviours . fuck you all"""

    I think you've got problems mate , Just when I thought the art of debate was lost
  • paspartu
    avatar
    yes higbury i have big problems with disrepectful cunts acting as arsenal fans and abusing our players and manager just cause we havent won silverware in the years weve been repaying our stadium.

    debate? lol.....piss off...debates are for silly americans.

    and in any case i dont see anyone having the ability to take me on a debate, he will use my inuslts to hide and avoid answering........ :wink:

    funny how you lot are sensitive when your opinions are shoved back down your arses and you get ridiculed for them, yet you want to freely mock and abuse our players and manager.
  • paspartu
    avatar
    lol porter

    "to increase the capital value of the club so that the then shareholders could cash in and line their pockets"

    isnt that the purpose of any business?

    and in any case ...why dont you show us who and when and how much he took out of the club to "line his pockets" ...go on.....

    and as for you wtf...the fascists are those who DEMAND change just cause they cant have patience. they are the ones who are trying to force on the rest that their dumb @rse opinion should be the LAW.
  • FOYS  - paspartu
    avatar
    So you don't like Arsenal fans having a go at your Messiah.....ah didums. You've probably only been a "fan" since 1996 and he's the only manager that you've ever known. When he finally goes, lets hope the tobys like you go with him!!!!!
  • paspartu
    avatar
    my messiah? ... why dont you show me the original quote?

    oh there is none ...since i talk about "abusing players and manager" :wink: you see anything there about messiahs boy?

    good effort spud troll now go back where you came from...them blogs of misery where you sit and moan all day...

    there are places for you to go and have a moan and get it out of your system,.... :lol:

    why come here ? are you mad that the majority is positive ?
  • FOYS
    avatar
    Don't have to show you a quote.... everyone can see by you're posts that you are a fully paid up member of the COW.


    I see you are reverting back to your childish ways...... calling anyone who dares to criticise the club or you, a member of the swamp dwellers from N17........it's the sort of thing you would from a kid.



    Btw, I go where I want!!!
  • Hobart  - Part of the problem
    avatar
    Unfortunately keyboard warriors like paspartu stifle any sort of proper debate about the problems at the club. They think in simple black and white terms and shout down anyone that doesn't agree with them. Often arguing against published fact, and they peddle some terrible misconceptions.
  • Anonymous
    avatar
    just what the hell does cow stand for ? talking in codes now foys ?

    the only "children" i see are all these moaners and abusers who want to come out and critisise everything arsenal related when a result doesnt come our way...


    hobart : black and white? thats rich.....i take it then that youre on the black side and me on the white? is that what you mean? white would suggest that everything is rosy as opposed to your black suggesting everything is shit. i never said everything is rosy though, only thta i understand what i see and that i support it..... if you cant understand what you see and revert to extremes demanding changes then maybe youre the one who has got it wrong in your head.

    you will lose in a debate about arsenal... all your "facts" are the sayings of the anti-arsenal media....
  • paspartu
    avatar
    hobart : debates

    a debate for what? the neccesity of a debate arises from the need to solve a problem, a disagreement . what are arsenal's problems then to require a debate? :wink:

    i dont see any problems when i take into account what this club did in 06 and what its doing since then.....do you? well maybe thats cause you havent understood what the plan is and in your inability to explain it you prefer to listen to "7 trophyless years" and "feeder club" nonsense you get fed from media.....

    debate, by nature requires a side which is anti and a side which is pro.......why would any arsenal fan, afan who loves his club win lose or draw, ever take the position of anti against his own club? :wink:

    my children......you are clutching at straws ..... 8)
  • baldy red  - COW
    avatar
    I'm goina go for an educated guess here and say it stands for Cult Of Wenger
  • paspartu
    avatar
    thanks for the clarification baldy. first time i hear this expression. what does it mean though? is this cult of wenger something positive or negative? is it it a term to belittle wenger ? the arsenal fans? whats it purpose?

    hobart : back on the issue of debates

    wenger;s loyalty to arsenal is not up to debate
    our players technical ability is not up to debate
    what is definately up to debate is the the refereeing system and how its been screwing arsenal, as well as the one sided idiotic constant negative bashing of our club by media.
  • baldy red
    avatar
    I'm not even sure if that's right tho it wouldn't be positive that's for sure,slagging of fans in support of AW

    FOYS could clarify if I am right or not
  • paspartu
    avatar
    slagging of fans? not all fans are the same though...some are right cunts...

    like all the ones who were expecting us to fail today so that they start their moaning :D

    hehe ..who said we cant do it on a pitch up north in february after international breaks ..haha haters.... nevermind we might give some oxygen till next week ....

    down to ten..pressure on...we showed grit..well done ARSENAL!

    and baldy before i go ...considering that this manager has offered a lot more to the club than any fan, it is easy to defend the manager against the savages abusing him and saying he has lost it. very easy. in fact its the right thing. and you cant deny it. :D
  • baldy red
    avatar
    Fans pay their hard earned cash in support of the club,manager gets 7 mill a year out of the clubs coffers......
  • paspartu
    avatar
    why baldy whats the problem when you slag of a disrespectful twat who has lost it and is abusing our players and manager? :twisted:

    please tell me what is wrong with that . :twisted:

    you saying the fans are correct when they abuse and insult wenger ? cause thats not what you said two days ago...

    youre slipping..dont blow your cover heh... 8)
  • paspartu
    avatar
    you can get foys to assist you .... :oops:

    :lol:
  • Hobart  - Point proven
    avatar
    I forgot to add making assumptions about peoples opinions and belittling people without first understanding their point of view...

    FYI I am pro Wenger...
  • paspartu
    avatar
    yeah baldy ok .... its the fans money that pay his salary ..not his transfer activity... :lol: :lol:

    you serious with that shit ? ....i thought you were urging others to take a leaf out your book and not pay for tickets if they dont agree....whats the matter baldy? slipping again :P

    ====================================================

    no hobart your point of view is tainted by your miserable outlook on the club so ......why listen to someone who is negative ?

    as for opinions..weve been here before ..its not like any of you has the gravity of character or experience to offer one which has real value for the organisation of the football club and its setup or its activities....you can only express it but thats like farting....and weve had enough of your smelly farts to be honest... :lol: :lol:

    go join your "wenger out" leaders pierced organ and ian wright and merson and alan hansen ..... 8) 8)
  • baldy red
    avatar
    U really are a dense twat paspartu so I'm goina break this down in the most basic of english.
    1/ I believe that a fan that pays to watch a match has the right to express his vocal opinion be it good or bad and ur esteemed leader also said the same

    2/ I also believe like you that abuse is counter productive hense why I stay away so in summary fans airing frustration while I support their right to do so consider it detrimental

    3/ please don't refer to me blowing my cover as in doing so shows me that you are all too happy to make silly assumptions of me based on my different
    outlook on our club
  • paspartu
    avatar
    i dont disagree with your 1 as long as you admit that the opinion is limited to an expression...whether it should be heard or not is another matter altogether...correct?

    answer me this please...is it correct yes or no?

    you are talking about the right to express an opinion and i talk about the validity and gravity of an opinion.
  • paspartu
    avatar
    and where does this different outlook of yours on arsenal come from? does it not come from the myriad of cunts in media and english football establishment telling you how its too long 7 years without a trophy? does it not come from watching plastic clubs buying cups and their fans rubbing it in your face on monday mornings?

    you can be a believer in arsenal because you are convinced of what we do and how we do it and you understand the transition that the club has been going through ever since it moved or you can be a miserable git and abuse the club for not showing ambition and not being able to handle the assaults from thugs on the pitch and xenophobic refs.

    not once have i mentioned wenger ( i say manager) yet you throw his name back at me all the time...messiah one day sweet lord the next...i would appreciate if you took another leaf from your massive book and not make assumptions....

    is the above basic english good for you or do you need a translator then you dense twat (just kidding)?
  • baldy red
    avatar
    Sick telling you lad my views have fuck all to do with media or rival fans,7 years without a trophy isn't the be all and end all for me but the minimum requirement for me is 11 players on the pitch busting a fucking gut for the cause,being aware what it should mean to pull on that shirt and to represent the arsenal and on too many occasions we have not been getting that now if you have failed to see that well that would worry me sumwhat.

    You have mentioned the manager on countless posts arguing the cosh with anyone who dares criticise him,in your eyes he can do no wrong I refer you to FOYS COW comment.tell me how in the name of good fuck is that an asumption ffs
  • paspartu
    avatar
    ok so whats your reaction when they are busting their guts for arsenal and dowd or webb or dean screws them up ? do you still blame the players?

    i critisise those who abuse and those who think that their opinion carries more value than the manager's ..yes i do. explain to me whats wrong with that cause its clealry bothering you from what i see.

    do you have issues with me defending the professionals from the stupid and baseless criticism of amateurs? is that it?

    just how on earth can you see in my eyes and know if i see his wrongs or not? you make no sense with that comment. everybody makes mistakes. if you want to magnify the little negatives and disregard the plenty of positives then maybe your opinion isnt fair.....or balanced.....or is made with other things in mind..or serves an agenda.....

    i dont need to tell you about the anti-arsenal sentiment in this country's football establishment now do i? :wink:
  • baldy red
    avatar
    Dowd or webb or dean would you fucking listen to yourself yapping over referees and a handfull of bad decisions for crying out loud man every team suffers at the hands of poor officiating from time to time shit like that evens itself out over the coarse of a season using that line is laughable.
    Dry your eyes on that score n stop making excuses :cry:

    You say criticise but id call it insult people that thinks AW is past his best so fucking what if some fans think that the club would be better off without him its an opinion after all I don't see fans that back AW gettin talked down in thes same manner.

    Anti-arsenal sentiment yeah alrite.... :roll:
  • LJB  - You're a gooner,don't get misrepresented
    avatar
    Arsenal football club no longer regards its supporters as fans but as "customers".Therefore these "customers" have a perfect right to complain about the product on offer. The increasing number of empty seats at the Emirates, as well as the dwindling season ticket waiting list reveals that the customers are voting with their feet. Considering that the club earns the majority of its income through matchday revenue i would imagine that the money men at the club are becoming slightly concerned. The suggestion that if you want a say about how the club is being run then buy some shares is disingenuous ,since there currently exists a shareholder with 29.9% of the club who is denied any input whatsoever .Finally ,the AST has never claimed to represent the views of all Arsenal fans, just those of its members.Tim Payton is voted as head of the AST by its members.I personally think many people are jealous of Mr Payton as they would love to be interviewed on the subject of Arsenal by the media.Personally i am GLAD there is a fans group that holds the club to account and doesn't just blindly swallow everything spouted by Ivan,Wenger and co. The unswerving faith of some fans that Kroenke won't take money out "because he has never taken money out of any of his franchises before", needs to be countered by those suspicious enough of the absentee majority shareholder to scrutinise the activities of the club very closely.
  • Hobart  - Preconceptions and the stifling of debate.
    avatar
    I am Pro Wenger, but I find it interesting that there is an assumption of hostility before finding any facts out at all.

    This is the problem I highlighted initially. The ill informed, making assumptions and then becoming hostile and abusive to win an argument from behind a keyboard.

    Maybe you should stop accusing others of getting their views from the media and rely on conversations you could have with others, instead of berating them for things that you have imagined.
  • baldy red
    avatar
    @ LJB & Hobart------spot on lads
  • paspartu
    avatar
    hobart the ill informed are people like you and others who think you have the knowledge and experience to critisise the work being done at the club. youre the ones pretending the smart arses coming out calling this player useless and that manager a has-been and how we should spent x amount on player y.

    baldy wants the freedom to critisise because he pays a ticket ...to him such a scenario is perfectly justifiable...to me it is bollocks ...it is the attitude of the "customer" walking in a restaurant...we are supporters not customers...but if you view yourself as a customer then i guess you can moan about lack of silverware...after all the system makes you crave for them...

    i told you yesterday but you havent replied ..what purpose does a debate serve? are you doing it for yourself or for the good of arsenal? a debate is instigated by someone who doesnt agree with what is happening....so lads what is it you dont agree with about the running of arsenal football club which prompts you into creating debates ?

    you have no case,,, you are just looking for your negative outlooks to be accepted as discussion points. fuck that shit....it creates turmoil and hinders the psychology of our squad.

    your problem is that you know im right when it comes to whose opinion carries value, youre just mad cause i dismiss you as a bunch of know-nothing idiots who have the misguided idea about yourselves that you can judge other peoples work without you having any experience or knowledge of it.

    end of the day you know shit about football therefore your opinions on arsenal are rather borne of frustration of poor results rather than stepping back and looking at the work of the club as a whole.

    only spuds would constantly seek for negatives to come out and critisise the team the manager and the players....
  • paspartu
    avatar
    basically you want the freedom to critisise and talk shit about our players and wenger and you then get mad when i exercise my free right to critisise your ill-informed opinions.

    thats the whole story really....
  • paspartu
    avatar
    ljb....funny how you consider yourselves as the ones "who dont swallow the crap of gazidis and wenger" ...

    is that a suggestion that those who support are blind followers? is it impossible that we get it and can see what the club is doing and have the patience and the trust ?

    whose making assumptions now then? :lol: :lol:

    seems gazidis and wenger wind you lot up ...why is that?

    8)
  • Hobart  - Easy to win an argument when it's with the voices
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    "hobart the ill informed are people like you and others who think you have the knowledge and experience to critisise the work being done at the club. youre the ones pretending the smart arses coming out calling this player useless and that manager a has-been and how we should spent x amount on player y."

    Interesting as I haven't expressed an opinion about our players yet and have already declared my support for Wenger. You seem to have imagined my opinions in your own mind.

    "baldy wants the freedom to critisise because he pays a ticket ...to him such a scenario is perfectly justifiable...to me it is bollocks ...it is the attitude of the "customer" walking in a restaurant...we are supporters not customers...but if you view yourself as a customer then i guess you can moan about lack of silverware...after all the system makes you crave for them..."

    Again I haven't complained about a lack of silverware at all. You have conjured that up from your own imagination as well.

    "i told you yesterday but you havent replied ..what purpose does a debate serve? are you doing it for yourself or for the good of arsenal? a debate is instigated by someone who doesnt agree with what is happening....so lads what is it you dont agree with about the running of arsenal football club which prompts you into creating debates ?"

    A debate is a form of discussion and representative argument. In some cases the 'fors' and 'againsts' will discuss there opinions and hopefully come to a consensus or conclusion taking into account both sides opinion. In this case a multitude of sides exist making a consensus a lot harder to reach. This is what the author seemed to be be expressing.

    "you have no case,,, you are just looking for your negative outlooks to be accepted as discussion points. fuck that shit....it creates turmoil and hinders the psychology of our squad."

    Again you presume to suggest my opinions without actually hearing them. I begin to wonder if you are arguing against your own misconceptions?

    "your problem is that you know im right when it comes to whose opinion carries value, youre just mad cause i dismiss you as a bunch of know-nothing idiots who have the misguided idea about yourselves that you can judge other peoples work without you having any experience or knowledge of it."

    Again I think you are mirroring your own insecurities here. You know nothing of my opinions or the validity of them and seem to be projecting the ignorance of reality that you seem to posses in abundance.

    "end of the day you know shit about football therefore your opinions on arsenal are rather borne of frustration of poor results rather than stepping back and looking at the work of the club as a whole."

    Yet again, I haven't discussed football with you so you have no knowledge of my opinions. Just your own assumptions of them. At this stage I begin to wonder if you managing to hang on to your grasp of reality, as you seem to be remembering things that haven't happened.

    "only spuds would constantly seek for negatives to come out and critisise the team the manager and the players...."

    As I haven't mentioned any negatives, or indeed positives, I can only hope that you get a better grasp of reality soon.
  • Hobart  - Can't make your minds up.
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    Oh and you need not reply as I have no further intention of getting in the middle of an argument between you and yourself.
  • paspartu
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    a discussion is different than a debate.....in a debate one side proves the other wrong...in a discussion people just fart away...so why would you want to have debates on arsenal then? what is it that is wrong which needs to be discussed ?

    the need for a discussion or debate is because YOU are insecure about arsenal and what it does.

    the reality is simple ..wenger is one of the best managers in football ever and we are lucky as a football club to have him. anything else is the talk of a spud or an idiot who thinks he knows better than the professor about running football clubs.

    we are supporters not critics.......... :wink:

    better get to know what you support and why before thinking you can discuss the fors and against of anything........
  • FOYS  - COW
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    Yes Baldy Red, that's what it stands for. It's a term used for people who believe every word that Wenger says and can't stand him being criticised.
  • FOYS
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    Paspartu calling someone else an idiot........ oh the irony of that :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • FOYS  - Baldy Red
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    Re the COW. The majority of these "fans" only liked The Arsenal since Wenger has been at the club and think we were formed in 1996 :(
  • baldy red
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    thanks for the confirmations FOYS,did suspect thats what it was,id say therein lies the problem the JCLs not realizing what the club had to offer pre-wenger
  • paspartu
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    what irony foys ? explain yourself .... :twisted:

    are you suggesting that those who appreciate wenger only supported the club from 96 onwards?

    any more straws you wish to clutch at ? :D

    and well, how can i say it...its no secret wenger improved the club in every aspect...is that something you have difficulty coming to terms with being a spud and all .... :D
  • paspartu
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    "not realizing what the club had to offer pre-wenger"

    the stage is yours .....so please do tell us what this club had to offer pre-wenger ?

    point for point lets hear you out big man and lets see how many of those points of yours i destroy ...isnt it a debate you lot want? :lol: :lol: :lol:

    cant wait for this....... :D
  • baldy red
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    herbert chapman/george allison/tom whittaker/bertie mee/george graham.
    any connecion to those 5 managers wise guy?

    correct theyre all managers who built successfull sides so it wasnt just arsene'l wenger mate.point being there were good times before he came along and you can be sure therel b good times after hes gone as well.
    remember also that the majority of arsene'ls success was built on the back of players already at the club,solid defence who i dont need to name,the likes of bergkamp who bruce signed ffs,yes he brought in sum great players and no doubt prolonged the careers of others,got them playing some of the best football seen but it does not take away the fact that hes gone stale these last few years if you cant see that then thats your problem lad il b loosing no fucking sleep over it
  • paspartu
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    baldy..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz .... what connection do you have to the names you mentioned ? none.... :wink:

    success can be attained in different ways ...and all of them names combined cant touch wenger even at 5% in the manner of which he attained success with arsenal. we are talking 2 doubles here an unbeaten season 3 champion titles altogether plus champions league final and many qrts/semis....and all that in the modern age. 16 continous years STABILITY as a top team in england and europe.and more importantly...with proper football..none of that thuggish culture shit ...

    "remember also that the majority of arsene'ls success was built on the back of players already at the club," and now youre talking bollocks like a spud ....

    your mind is what has gone stale certainly not wenger's :wink:

    and if you cant see how building/repaying a stadium though your own means would obviously take its toll on the trophy statistic for a while, then maybe its your problem and not arsenal's....


    tell me...you like mourinho and saf dont you ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • baldy red
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    16 continuous years stability as a TOP TEAM IN ENGLAND AND EUROPE oh my sides are fucking splitting here I'm 2 double laughing you shud see me now :lol:
  • FOYS  - Paspartu
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    I don't have to explain anything to you about idiots, just go and have a look in the mirror Sonny.


    From my experience of going to the games and from the different forums I'm on, yes, the majority of fans that are happy with Wenger are the ones who have only known him as our manager.

    I agree that he improved the club........ in his early years. Now as a football team, which is his main responsibility, we are standing still.

    You really should stop calling life long Arsenal Supporters spuds..........mind you, it's what I expect from a child.
  • paspartu
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    what's that baldy? you dont agree? oh well i suppose you enjoyed this status with gg and mee then :lol: :lol: :lol:

    you silly spud...running out of cover now arent you? :wink:

    whats that foys....you and the blogs you visit? lol what else can a spud do? i understand...the years of pain ...stockholm syndrome...your need to knock arsenal down, dont let them think theyre all that...huh /

    you a lifelong arsenal supporter? yes it shows in your appreciation for what we have achieved in the last 16 years as a club .... .. :D

    psst spuddies ...its never gonna work for you....stay here with paspartu humiliating and exposing you :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • paspartu
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    look foys and baldy ...we are all arsenal fans here so lets focus on the things that unite us yes? :lol: :lol:

    lets talk about them mugs who ve been trying to catch up with us the last ten years spending 50 and 60 million per summer and still lose 5-2

    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
  • FOYS  - Forums not Blogs
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    Paspartu, don't you know the difference between the two? :lol:
  • baldy red
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    "Stay here with paspartu humiliating and exposing you"

    You talk shit mate and lots of it :wink:
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