How many points have we collected since the Carling Cup Final in February? It isn't about the start of the season. The malaise set in well before last Sunday.

Unless he is sacked he will not change. Look juan mata issue.

Well done James.I previously thought complete idiots were literate.
You have put me right on that one

There was a time when I loved Arsene Wenger. He was so different to Don Howe, George Graham and Bruce Rioch (the managers I remember). The football teams he produced between 1996 and 2006 were fantastic. It was a joy to watch, but it was built on solid foundations – George’s back five. Even the Invincibles had a strong foundation: Lehman, Lauren, Cole, Toure and Sol Campbell - players that knew how to defend. However, it started to go wrong ever so slightly during 2005 and 2006 and it has got worse since 2008.

At first, the loss of Patrick Vieira didn’t seem so bad. We got to the Champions League final in 2006 after all and but for Thierry’s poor finishing, we could have won. Ashley Cole signed for Chelsea in 2006 but we got Gallas in return and Clichy looked the business. But two things changed things fundamentally: (i) we moved into a brand new stadium, which had to be paid for (and we are still paying for it); and (ii) Arsene Wenger changed his philosophy – gone was the fine balance between hard men and flair men. In came the small, nimble and ever so injury-prone footballers. Was it a consequence of the stadium move? Possibly and hopefully the stadium move will pay off once the debt is cleared. Was it an inability to compete with Chelsea and Man United on the transfer front? I am not so sure. Wenger had done the impossible back in 2003/4. He now wanted to show the world he could do something different. Total football in the land of kick and rush. Barcelona-lite on a shoe-string (in terms of transfer fees paid, but not on wages).

The thing is, we still believed. It looked like he had done it again in 2007/8 but our season collapsed. Eduardo at St Andrews. 2-4 in the Champions League at Anfield. It was over. It was not to be and I came to the conclusion that Wenger’s time was up. I felt guilty. How could I not be supportive of the man? He had changed so much at Arsenal – be it youth development, the training ground, Ashburton Grove and the style of football. We kept qualifying for the Champions League. But it was clear it was not the same.

I often get asked who else should do the job or think of what he has done over the last 15 years? But I do not waver. I agree, he has achieved so much, especially in the first 10 years but at some point it has to come to an end. Players stop listening, having heard the same team talk for year upon year and being paid handsome sums without justification (think of Bendtner’s £52k per week, Denilson’s and Eboue’s £60k per week and there are plenty more). Opponents wise up – tactically (think of the way United, Chelsea and Spurs now set themselves up to hit us on the counter-attack, knowing we cannot defend) and financially (either nicking our better players or gazumping us). The world moves on. Yes, we cannot win every trophy every year (no matter how much we want to) but we do want hope. Something that I haven’t felt much since 2007/8 despite the odd string of performances or flashy result.

This leaves us with two choices: we can continue to blindly believe in Wenger’s project in some way hoping that the last 7 months is just a blip and things will get better (some blip: 19 points in 19 League games is relegation form in anyone’s book) or we can accept things need to change. Personally, I know which one I want. I am fed up watching a team that cannot defend, fearful that we need a three goal advantage to be sure of winning. I am fed up watching a team that shows little fighting spirit or tactical awareness. I am fed up with the same excuses match after match after match (“too many injuries” – it has been the same for the last 4 or 5 years; “we played with the handbrake off” – come off it, we were mediocre at best as were some of the players (Diawara (remember him?), Stepanovs, Cygan, Chamakh, Eboue, Denilson, Arshavin, Rosicky, Djourou, Senderos, Traore etc. etc. etc.); or “we were unlucky” – no, we weren’t. You need to be able to take your chances and defend your lead to win at football).

Things need to change and change quickly. Otherwise we face losing more players in next Summer and the rebuilding process will take even longer. Who knows what that change will be but Messrs Kroenke and Gazidis- OPEN YOUR EYES AND YOUR EARS!

Oh dear.

Shame you haven't got the courtesy to have a bit of manners when debating. Anyway, not everyone has been brought up the right way I guess.

Anyway, perhaps it is that simple in your mind but I have read plenty about dressing room disharmony because of wage conflicts. You cannot have people doing the same job at such vast differences.

Supporters moan about why Flamini was in the Arsenal squad before his great season then he should be paid whatever he wants when he plays well. The same happened to Nasri. I read how he was fat and average and then after six months of quality we should be paying him whatever he wants.

You cannot have it both ways and the manager cannot predict if every player will make it or not.

Arshavin and Rosicky are mediocre are they?

Zenit-era Arshavin and Dortmund-era (pre knee knack) Rosicky, no. Last season and start of this, yes. Average at best.

@James

"Instead, Wenger put absolute shite like Almunia, Rosicky, Vela, Bendtner, Diaby, Eboue, Clichy, Gibbs, Chamakh, Senderos and a load of others on massive wages just to protect his youth project."

Rosicky was a pretty big name player when we signed him. There's no way that any club could sign such a player without offering good money! And there's no reason to think that Bendtner or Eboue or Gibbs would be on less money if (and you might argue that this is a big if!) they were at a similarly sized club - say, Liverpool.

I think it is true that the problem is inherent to our approach. But I also think its naive to see that there are other approaches currently available to us.

For 7 or 8 years Wenger competed just about neck and neck with Utd, but ultimately that success was unsustainable, because of the vast difference in financial power.

That gulf has on the one hand narrowed (due to our increased revenues) but on the other become greater (merely to do with the unnatural wage inflation caused by Chelsea and now City).

We simply can't afford the best players in the world. What are we going to do?

We can afford the best young players in the world, and try to turn them into top players.

Unfortunately we've then got to hope that those players deliver us success before they up and leave.

Also, remember that its easier to judge what a star signing should be worth (wages-wise) than a potential talent. Eboue for instance was signed on the cheap, but soon looked one of the most promising young full backs in the world. Duly we upped his wages, but he didn't quite deliver.

Nasri looked solid but not particularly outstanding for the majority of his time here. Do a few months justify a huge increase in pay? Maybe, but if thats the case then its easy to see why Clichy, Senderos and many more are / were paid more than you think they're worth!

i dont think you have the b@lls to be a GUNNER but then again the internet allows you to pretend one

TIME FOR YOUR MEDICATION MORE LIKE


lol ..so the man who opened englands eyes on professional football ...not to mention the sophistication and transformation of arsenal is gonna hve his eyes opened by your fkn lot ?


pmsl ...are all english as thick as this one ....

If you read my comment, I appreciate everything Wenger has done for the club, especially the first 10 years. That doesn't mean things can't change. You can't rely on past glories. Just look at what happened to Notts Forest in the last few years of the Brian Clough and how they have never really recovered.

no,he is particularly stupid

Ah AKB's! Always calling people idiots for having different views to their own.

Let me be clear. What he has done for the Club has been fantastic, especially first 10 years. Not been great since 2008, particularly ropey since Feb 2011. Something needs to change. People can be blind to the need to change, relying on the past but all you are doing is putting off the inevitable and making it far worse.

some way you have to show your appreciation ...by doubting him questioninbg him and cosnidering him finished or unable to manage.

in the end of the day the man has kept his integrity while working for us ...always busted his gutts for arsenal ..and this what you give to him in return? doubt and abuse?

you are adisgrace and please leave this forum before i start saying even worse things..

mean lean shuts you all up with FACTS and all u lot got is your pitiful opinions..as if your opinions count for anything in front of wenger;s CV.....

As Fergie proved when he hung on for to long ,just to keep getting worse after his 3 year slump.Oh wait!!!

cant rely on past glories? lol and you said you saw the don howe and graham eras ?


sorry mate ..when did this great club of yours... this ...arsenal..ever had any past glories prior to wenger? what some cups in the 30's .....? and a double in 70-71 ...wow some fkn giant of a football club this arsenal was prior to arsene wenger.

do u realise that clubs like porto hamburg nottingham benfica and before wenger even panathinaikos had more european history than arsenal?

do u know that arsenal prior to wenger was losing finals with them fantastci back 5 getting lobbed in the 94th minute of stoppage time in saragosa?

who are you as an arsenal fan to demand that wenger delivers a title per year when never in your history as a club were you ever the kind of club to be winning trophies left and right?

no i generally call all people who think they can critisise professionals like wenger as idiots ....


what he has doen for the club you cant put a price on it.


supporting the manager who made arsenal what it is today , apoint of reference in world football, is not difficult for me..its plain common sense.

if you have had your mind manipulated my media and english w@nkers who wont rest until they see the frenchman gone ( as they feel he is polluting their values on the game ..pmsl) thats your fault ...not arsene's neither mean's who sits and tolerates your idiotic abuse in a site which he has created out of the love for his team.

soemthing needs to change allright ..all them customers who think their ticket is an investment and go to the stadium to boo the manager who took their pi55poor club of alcohoolics and turned it into a global brand recognised for its football and for its ethos.

Pika - you clearly do not read my post. (1) I said that you cannot expect to win every trophy every year (unless you are Bayern Munich and even they don't domestically). I just want hope, not resignatation of another lost season. (2) Arsenal won plenty of trophies pre Wenger. 10 of the 13 League titles were pre-Wenger for example. Graham won plenty, but I don't want a return to the days of a midfield of Jensen, Selley, Hillier and Morrow. I don't suppose you remember that. (3) My point about the back 5 was the ability to defend. All successful teams know how to defend, be it Barca, United and Mourinhio-era Chelsea. The current Arsenal team cannot. Even with the first choice back 5, there are still issues (possibly due to the lack of cover in central midfield). (4) As a season ticket holder for the last 10 years and attending matches since the early 80s, I have plenty of right to have a view

Boo-hoo, poor Mr Wenger can't compete. Poor Mr Wenger, paid £7m a year. Poor Mr Wenger with access to a £124m wage bill - more than 99.9% of clubs in world football. Poor Mr Wenger boo hoo - so hard done by. How dare we expect better than 4 wins in his last 18 Premier League games.

God Arsene or whoever write this if not you? We will not be a champions League club next year. You say u are happy to pay good waged to keep our better players not spunk it on new signings. Fine in principle but Fab and nasri and Clichy have all gone HELLO!!

Do you really think Almunia Denilson and Bendtner on £50,000 per week plus improves the team!!!

You sir have lost the plot!

Good night Mr Wenger

Pika - at what point did I say anything xenophobic or anti-French?
Predantic George - 3 years or 6, take your pick

i think i have read enough mister ...and because i respect the fact youre probably older than me i will try not to offend your ridiculous way of thinking ....


i remember a mdifeild of shwarz and limpaar finsihing 12th and 7th so please spare me with the history...

and my point about wenger is that back 5 or no back five his most succesful team had nothing to do with them 5 you all go on about as if were talking about baresi beckenbauer and maldini ffs ..

the last sentence of yours told me everything i needed to know ...so because you pay a ticket you think you can have an opinion on football matters? so i guess jamie rednkapp who was a pro footballer and deals with football 24 per day the last 25-30 years of his life is entitled to critisises managers liek wenger ferguson ancelotti and the rest? or shearer for the same matter or hansen ..and then you think you can do it too.

well not even ferguson himslef dares critisise arsene wemger they way you do ...you reckon you know more than fergie as well ? dont make me laugh please...

youall think that because you pay a ticket you can tell the manager how to run the football club.Nonsense. ...

did arsene wenger or anyone else form the club put a gun in your head and forced you to buy one?

did they twist your arm?

i suppose not ..

you did it on your own free will , and on your own free will you can return it or give it back and ask for a refund if you feel your investment aint paying the dividents it should.

the ticket is just a symbol to the emotional investment you make to the club. its a gesture of support and love to the club that represents the values you appreciate on football.

if the values/ethos/policy of wenger and arsenal are things you cant agree to then maybe you missed the train in 2006 when the club pressed the reset button.

I absolutely appreciate the football played under Wenger.

When Farnce was the greatest football nation in the world and he had a clear advantage in picking the best talents in France and predominantly French West Africa, he was able to challenge and regularly beat Man Utd.

But when Chelsea finally bought their way to a top class squad, the world changed. Arsenal has never beaten Chelsea to a competition since Mourinho.

Now Man City have got somewhere very close to Chelsea and there is a very real fear that Arsenal won't be able to beat weither of Chelsea or Man City except occasionally.

If you think Man U are here to stay for at least 5 years, then the natural conclusion is the rest of the league are competing for fourth.

That is a very vulnerable position for a Top4 club who is "always" in the Champions League, with teasms like Spurs and Lpool threatening to take the spot.

That however is just the strategic medium-term position.

That is telling you that in general any team outside the Top3 are going to struggle to win things (i.e. the FA ad Carling Cups) and/or get in the CL.

The short term position is that a team with very good players and that beat Man City, Chelsea, Man U and Barcelona last year (admittedly almost all at home) but couldn't get the job done has gone through a dramatic, prolonged slump.

It has sold its best players and replaced them with squad guys and/or young talents. The team is playing poorly but you don't get the feeling they have got very much better performances in them - in fact they are hanging on for their victories almost all the time.

Their best hopes are that TV, JW and now BS get well soon and have an impact and that AOC and Frimpong/Coquelin develop very quickly indeed.

Even if all these things happen Arsenal would still appear to need a miracle to get fourth this year I would have thought.

Sorry, lads, but that's pretty much how it is.

Total football in the land of kick and rush

yes you are right lets make him apologise for bringing football civilisation to arsenal and consequently the rest of the league....

so in other words..you people want to see 22 donkeys with no skill running up and down chasing a ball while also trying tohurt eachother on the process?

why dont you follow rugby instead ....?

football is no contact sport..as far as i know the rules are pretty straightforward ..no elbows no pushing no arms no punches no pulling no kicking no headbutting no grabbing people throwing them in the ground....football is a game of technique and strategy ..its neither a wwf contest nor an arena for thatchers and taylor to release their bigotry complex issues

that being said its neither a fkn ballet ..thats why when you remember football you remember bergkamps zidannes and maradonnas and turn away when you see keannes materazis and terrys.

What about his shitty tactics and the fact that his team lets in more set piece goals than any other in the Premier League last season - including the bottom placed club that let in 73?!

I seldom write anything on any blogs, but lately I've felt an obligation to do so. My team is in trouble, and I need to stand up for them.

I wrote yesterday asking all gooners to stop damaging the team with all this negativity. Support the team, support the manager, support the principals we stand for. What do I get in return???? Loads of comments, abuses, and apparently another article trenched with sarcasm and bitterness towards other gooners. Come on my friends!!! When was the last time arsenal football club sacked a manager half way through a season?? Are you not proud to say "long long time back"? We are not like any other club! Be proud of that.

Let's start debating and writing articles on tactical considerations, on how to maximize the talent we have, on how to overcome the up coming fixtures we have? Many of us told ourselves after the tranfer window closed "ok, this is what we have, let's now support our team"...instead, a few games later we start talking about transfers budgets, and wengers stingy ego!! HELLOOO!!!! The next transfer window is months away! Let's continue to believe in our team, let's help them through our positivity and our constructive thoughts. Saying "sack him, he's rubbish, he bought crap" is not going to get us anywhere.

I only choose to write on Arsenal Vision, because I like its commentary....so please, I request for the second day running....let's write stuff that is constructive. Not destriuctive!!! Make me believe in this site please.

Let me start with a thought starter.... Sagna reprecussion! Jenkonson has heart, and should play in home games to gain experience and confidence. The other day, when he came on against the spurs you could see his positioning was naïve. I like coquelin....perhaps he's got a little more fight and tactical awareness...so let's play him in away games. Let's test and learn. For champions league, I think we need to be more aggressive and actually surprise our opponents. Let's play higher up the field, increase our tempo, try to play possession ball and nullify the opponent wingers. Both jenkinson and coquelin will need to compete to see who gets champions league games. This is my positive thought for the day. Builds?? Challenges??

Pika, why would such an ardent Arsenal hater bother to come onto an Arsenal forum. I am surprised that Mean Lean does not intervene. He frequently does so when Mr Wenger is heavily criticised so I would have hoped for the same when the club itself is being so shamefully slandered. This is after all a site that claims to be for Arsenal supporters.

If you Pika really are an Arsenal supporter (which I’m you are not) then it leads me to ask a question: Is there a growing strain of supporter that believes that, in order to truly love Arsene, one must truly hate Arsenal? In order to magnify Wengers achievments and to validate his recent failures, is it necessary to trample on & demean one of the most trophy laden histories in English football and to create an altered truth where Arsenal were a small club with minimal success in it’s past before Arsene arrived? How can anyone call themselves an Arsenal fan if they not only ignore the clubs magnificent history but actually openly rubbish it?

You have stated ad nauseum that pre Wenger Arsenal were not a successful club and had, in fact, a history of mid table mediocrity. Perhaps you’re a Spurs fan but are there a significant number of Arsenal ‘fans’ that are either ignorant of, or contemptuous of, our history pre Wenger?

Here are some facts (it wouldn’t take long to check them out if you were interested.).

Arsene Wenger inherited a club that had won 6 trophies in the previous 9 years, including 2 league titles. On the day he took over we were second in the table. The day he took over we were second only to Liverpool in terms of league titles won in the history of English football. So the second most successful club in history had no history of success!

Since Herbert Chapman first won the title in the 30’s the club has won the league in every single decade except the 1960’s, frequently more than once.

In 73 seasons we have won 27 trophies. That’s a trophy every 2.7 years ON AVERAGE.
27 trophies and yet you claim that Arsenal is a club with a history of sustained mediocrity.

In the 73 three seasons since then, we have been in the top six 49 times. We have been in the bottom half 10 times. Not exactly a history of mid table mediocrity is it? No other club, other than Liverpool, comes anywhere close to this type of consistency. All others, Man Utd included, have histories of midtable mediocrity-or worse.

We have NEVER been relegated. Man Utd were relegated in the mid seventies, Chelsea in 1988 and Man City were in the third tear less than a decade ago. But Arsenal have a history of mediocrity!

Our 13 titles have been won by 7 managers. In the same time Man Utds 17 have been won by only two. That is the difference between the 2 clubs. United have relied, entirely, on 2 genius managers to give them huge gluts of success. Equally they endure relegation and gluts of total failure. Arsenal tend not to enjoy the same short term periods of total dominance but are always challenging and accumulating titles and trophies at a consistent, steady rate. At Arsenal, other than Chapman, we have had no such genius managers-but we have had six others good enough to win the league. It is Arsenal the club itself that drives the success and as a consequence we have had no need for such a genius. History has proved this. Many of Arsene Wengers biggest fans label him a genius but I would not. Very good but not a genius. Equally I would be inclined to rate Graham beside Chapman in terms of managerial genius but many of my contemporaries disagree. No manager has ever been tolerated to keep the Arsenal job for more than five years without winning a trophy. Until Arsene Wenger that is. That says it all about the clubs historical intolerance of failure. At any other club Terry Neill would have been deemed a reasonable success, but not Arsenal.

We have only ever had one bad period between 53 & 88. Yet in that 35 year period we won 5 trophies. So in our ONLY EVER bad period we won, on average, a trophy every 7 years. Yet you chastise someone for being unhappy when we move into our 7th season without a trophy? I don’t think further comment on your ignorance, and Arsenal hatred, is required.
As regards our emabarassing European history pre Wenger, well in the 21 seasons that English clubs were allowed to compete in Europe, between 1969 & 1995 we won two European trophies. In the fifteen years under Arsene Wenger we have won well, er none. Panathanaikos, by the way, have never won a European trophy-which means they have something in common with Arsene Wenger, although not with Arsenal. 3rd and 4th always qualified for European football-it was called the UEFA cup. I assume that because UEFA amalgamated the UEFA cup & European Cup and stuck the word champion in the title you believe that everyone who competes in the competition must be a Champ. Because if UEFA says it…..

Longest period without trophy post Chapman
18- Years 1953-1970
8 years 1971-1979
8 Years 1979-1987
6 years 2005-2011
3 years 1950-1953

Longest Managerial trophy droughts
6 Years-Arsene Wenger
5 years-Bertie Me
4 years-Billy Wright
4 Years-George Swindin
4 Years-Terry Neill

The current spell includes the longest trophyless spell endured by any Arsenal manager and, if it continues this season & next, we’re into the 2nd worst period since Chapman. Only a numbskull or Ivan Gazidis would describe these as heady days. These facts are important to put some perspective on our current situation.

The argument that it’s tougher nowadays is the biggest bunkum of all. The fact that we have one of the biggest wage bills in the world and that the fourth highest wage bill in the Prem (Arsenal) is almost double that of the sixth biggest (Spuds) makes this the least competitive period at the top of English football that I can recall, in my 30 years supporting our great club. Financially the league has only 5 competitive clubs and City only became competitive in the last 3. A good comparison can be made between now and the last time we were so consistently decent/average/poor between 1979 & 86. I’ve taken the six year period from 80/81 to 85/86 for comparison. From 05/06 to 10/11 a total of 6 clubs have finished in the top 4. From 80/81 the number was 11, almost twice as many. Even the, then, dominant Liverpool missed out on the top 4 once during this time. So the excuse that times are tougher now is just that, an excuse. Those were dark, dark days for Arsenal, yet under Neill, in the three years from 80-82 we finished 3rd, 4th & 5th and lost two cup finals. Considering the level of competition I would suggest this was a vastly better achievement than the past three years. Particularly as our wage bill is now almost on a par with Man Uniteds, something previously unheard of.The worst days of all, under Howe, we were 6th & 7th in consecutive seasons and lost two semi finals in one season. The difference between then and now is that two managers lost there jobs in the space of 4 years because of the lack of silverware. Today, Ivan tells us that this is a great period in our clubs history. Nothing at all to do with the fact that nowadays they give you 25 million for fourth place, Ivan!

I’m sure youre on of these people that will quote ‘premiership’ records ad nauseum in the belief that football was invented by Skysports in 1992.

I’m sorry if the tone is an angry one but as a fan for over 30 years I don’t like seeing our club being run down. I take most blogs with a massive pinch of salt but was taken aback to see such Arsenal hating comments on an Arsenal supporters website. We can have very different views on the merits of players, managers or directors, but surely not on the merits of the club itself?

Whether you want Arsene Wenger to remain or to go is a matter for debate. But it is totally correct that his position is being questioned and the absence of silverware cannot be tolerated indefinitely. To do so would mean that the Skysports generation have contrived to make one man bigger than the club and would be a complete betrayal of all the great deeds of Chapman, Shaw, Allison, Whittaker, Mee, Graham and, indeed, Wenger himself.

So Mean Lean show you’re an Arsenal man, not just an Arsene man. When someone slags off our great clubs history put them in their place.
We are Arsenal we have never & will never accept second best, let alone midtable mediocrity.
Apologies for any spelling errors but I’ve written this in haste.

my friend you say the right things , but unfortunately some natives have lost the plot and would rather lurk in the corner waiting for the team to lose to attack the manager..... these people..call themselves fans of arsenal... i spit on them.

i dont know about jenkinson and frankly i dont care. the defence can not do much when the attack aint scoring. and for the attack to score the midfield must provide. wenger the other week" van persie times his runs magnificently therefore you are guilty as a midfielder if you dont find him with a pass" ..you hear that aaron? good! now stop passing to chesney please.

arsenal has lost 4 games and three of them were with opponents where the socre can go either way. nothing is lost.

Love it Old Goon.

Brilliant post... Makes me love our great club even more.

to create an altered truth where Arsenal were a small club with minimal success in it’s past before Arsene arrived?


THATS THE POINT .....it aint no altered truth but the plain truth

between the end of thirties and the eighties the only league title arsenal ever won was the 71 double....40 years my friend..one league title ..so please spare me your cr@p. ..youre counting them tin cups you play for in england the f.a cups and league cups and beer cups or whatever? well sorry but i dont..none of them cups made arsenal as world renowned as wenger did with his football.

if you call a period of transition where youve climbed from 0 to 3rd richest in the world as going backwards then maybe you need your head examined.

i am an arsenal fan and i can use exxagerations any way i want to emphasise the imprtance of wenger;s regime in arsenal s history unlike you who thinks that by being honest about boring boring arsenal is something bad....

I support the Club that is why I spend my money on watching matches. I also did not say that only season ticket holders can have a view and apologies if that is what you inferred. I was trying to convey the fact of watching Arsenal for almost 30 years live, I have seen a lot of football and saw how the Back 5 and the Invincibles back 5 created the base for Wenger's success. An ability to defend is a prerequisite for any successful football team.

We won the title in the 30's,40's, 50's, 70's, 80's & 90's pre Arsene. So you are mistaken. I freely admit Arsene has been a great manager for our club. But he is one of many. I will always remember George with greater affection because of 1989 and the mess he initially inherited . But thats an entirely a personal view and does not demean Arsene in any way. Football mangers come and in the end they go, Thats football.

is your support to the club conditional on titles ?

also to end this joke ...the defenders wenger had in 1998 ...and the defenders wenger had in 2004 ...only keown was part of the invinciho had 3 appearances ...

your arguement about the back 5 is simply not an arguement anymore.

and please dont lecture me on defensive strategies...this issue goes way deeper than defence. it is only in england that wenger accepts such criticism and it is only from the kind of people who could be classified as "little engladers" ...no serious person could ever ever have any compalints from the work the manager has done for us.

plain and simple..he spoilled you all in hsi early tenor when he only had manchester to worry about ..and now that the opponents have multiplied and he cant find the room to do what he used to ( steal titles under the giants noses) you think you can demand stuff from him.

i laugh. if it wasnt for him your club would be in a situation like southampton...remeber them? they also built a stadium..st mary/s and they also sell their best players ..beattie,theo, ox etc. only they are in second division and wenger plays champions league

and reaches european finals with senderos eboues and 17 year old fabregas ..and you want to critisise him? ...lol....

greatpiece Old Goon. Pika you just show your complete idiocy and ignorance with every stupid piece you write. 'One title in 40 years'. Prat. every proper Arsenal fan knows their history like the 2 x table but it seems you don't, or maybe you don't know your two times table either judging by the level of your 'comments'. Repeat after me Pika....31,33,34,35, 38,48,53,71,89,91,98,02,04. Got it? now shut the f up you annoying tosspot.

And ML you know the saying, 'with friends like Pika...' He is a pest and he does this site a disservice with his infantile rants. There have always been good posts from both sides of the Wenger debate and my old friend Richie used to annoy me sometimes, but i never questioned his status as a fan (although he didn't always return the compliment) but this guy Pika is not serious. I actually think he MIGHT be a wind up merchant fan of another club such is his stupendous level of ignorance of our history. just an honest view from a long time reader of your blog. Cheers

the use of the words 'YOUR history' is a bit of a giveaway Pika. The revelling in Nayim's fluke (xxxx) just overegg's the pudding a bit. Very funny, you've had your fun, now go away and enjoy your poxy club's brief moment of superiority while it lasts, you small time mug.

i am not english and i take myself out of the equation though..the use of yuor when saying history is to remind you thatthsi club was pants before arsene wenger and never enjoyed a 15 year tenor in top flight football
u can deny that all you want ..why would i support mean lean and wenger if i were a fan of another team. you make no sense.

the small time mugs are those who think that through the internet they can pretend the gooners and ask for wenger to be sacked....

and the big time mugs are those who think that they have the adequate qualifications to critisise professionals like wenger.

the mere fact none of you can reply to means challenge signifies that you lot are just frustrated and dont know what stick to beat the manager with

Old Goon - great post. Clearly, there is no way to have a reasonable discussion with Pika. He is someone who has to have the last word even if some of his arguments and conclusion jumping is a touch irrational.

Pika - you are quite right, I am not and never have been a professional footballer or a coach in any professional levels of the game. I am a fan. I have been a fan of the Club all my life and I will continue to be a fan for the rest of my life. However, I reserve the right to have an opinion on what is happening at Arsenal and offer a solution. It may not be to everybody's liking, but I refuse to call people idiots for not agreeing with me or accuse them of being xenophobic. Shouting people down does not make your arguments any stronger.

Arsenal FC has a long and great history. The Club is 125 years old, not 15. As OldGoon points out (and you will see on the Arsenal website, at Asburton Grove or even on Wikipedia) is that they won many trophies over the 110 year period pre-Wenger and you make a disservice by denying that.

What a lot of fans are complaining about Pika is (1) a poor defence (which there is no way you can argue with - look at the defensive record over the last few years, especially goals conceded at set pieces); (ii) tactical naivety (there has never really been a Plan B in the Wenger years and a lot of opponents have worked us out); (iii) an apparent lack of bottle or togetherness on the pitch (other teams always seem to want it more); and (iv) managerial blindness to changes in personnel - Chamakh and Bendtner are not Henry; Rosicky could have been but wasn't Pires; Song, Diaby, Denilson are not Vieira, Petit or Gilberto; Arteta is sadly not Fabregas; Almunia, and Fabianski are not Seaman or Lehman (thank goodness Sczesny looks the business); Mertesacker, Djorou, Senderos, Squillaci, Cygan, Stepanovs, Koscielny etc. are not Bould, Adams, Keown or Campbell. In other professions, comparable behaviour could be seen as negligent.

Yes he has constraints (some of them financial (although having read the finance documents for the stadium I am not convinced we are are in a situation comparable to Leeds, Southampton, Plymouth or Everton - significant amounts of money has to be reinvested in the team at all times), some of them of his own making (tactical or failing to pay the extra million or so to sign players (I know this from a journalist friend of mine)) and some fall squarely with the Board), but if you cannot see that there are problems and you and other AKB's refuse to question what has happened over the last 7 months (or 3 years if you are me) then you really are in for a shock.

We are not loosing our players because we cant pay high wages, we are loosing them because we cant compete. Tottenham kept Modric, Bale n others who are on smaller wages than our highest earners. What then are we talking about. Players are leaving cos the tean is not good enough and the only person we can blame is the person that is in charge of enhancing the team........... I am about to become a doctor and people will die from me because I am a bad one. My final 3years in med skul were overlooked because I had wonderful results in High School......this is exactly what we are doing to Wenger, judging him based on his past. If we had not sold anybody during the summer we still would have needed 3 quality players, but Wenger sold 3 of our best performers and refused to replace them because we lost 8-2. And to know that he only signed Per because he was privy to Vermaelen's injury spanks of insensitivity and absence of drive. May be he is running low on testosterone. Let him go. Mata has been Chelsea's best player by a mile this season, they bought him for 23...we refused to buy him for 17. Their team is better off cos of a few extra dollars, we are richer but poorer team-wise. What people dont understand is that we dont have to sack Wenger per se to get rid of him...we can get him a position somewhere in the board where his interference is limited. And before you ask for who will replace him I have a list: Oneil, Moyes, Coyle....just to mention a few.

"none of you is in any position to judge whether his personnel or his players are good enough or not cause none of you has the stats and ergometric tests and analysis he has got in his disposal."

Are you seriously saying that I am not entitled to criticise players or say that they are worse than others? Jeez, that is nuts.

"i dont mind you having your opinion. but when your opinion does not show respect to what wenger has done fro arsenal it angers me. the man has worked his @rse off for us."

How many times have I had to explain that I think over the course of his 15 years he has done a great job, especially the first 10. The last 3 have not been good enough. This was also a similar point made by Old Goon.

"its not about agreeing with me its about recognising that the manager you all castigate has been working with budgets CONSIDERABLY lower to the ones available to the ones who win things."

Not strictly true. The only team we cannot compete with financially is Man City, although the financial fair play rules may constrain them if enforced. Abramovich will not spend in the same way as he did previously.

Wenger has a large "war chest" but he doesn't like what he terms "financial doping". He tries to seek value at all times, which is great if you are a shareholder in a corporate. But that isn't how football works. No one invests in football clubs to make money. He invests heavily in players' contracts. The gap between the top earner in the first team and the lowest earner is not much at all (I read somewhere it is £30k per week). No club has a similar model. Players have to earn their contracts. An example: Ramsey was offered £5k per week by Ferguson to join United. He signed a £30k a week contract with Arsenal, that was upped to £50k quite quickly). It was a no-brainer. That does not offer the right incentives to players. He chooses to do that. The Board don't force that approach on him. What did Bendtner do to earn a £50k a week contract? 11 goals on loan at Brum in the Championship?

Another set of examples: Mata was all ready to sign for £17m (it was a done deal) but Wenger pulled out and he is now at Chelsea. Xabi Alonso very nearly joined Arsenal 3-4 seasons ago. Liverpool wanted an extra £1m so they could get Barry. Wenger had offered £17m but refused to spend that little extra and we lost out on an excellent player. Cahill is rumoured to have agreed personal terms, but Wenger refused to pay Bolton an extra £1.5m to secure his signature - we face losing out on him next Summer. There are countless examples over the years - some are actually quite shocking - and include C. Ronaldo.

As also mentioned I have read the securitisation documents. The financial burden on the club is not that bad. It was a good deal at the time, which is looking a better deal now, especially given the vast majority of the debt is paid down. Compare that to United. The Glazers loaded £800bn of debt on United, but they could still buy players and spend lots of money. Your argument/rant doesn't hold.

No one has ever said Wenger should spend ikn such a way as to put the Club in peril. He needs to buy quality and not wastemoney on fees and wages on players who are not good enough. Quality players cost money.

70,000 animals? Didn't realise the Spuds ground doubled in size overnight.

What the hell has that got to do with anything? The chanting at that game was abhorrent, both from the Spuds and from our fans. The issue is the team's performance/attitude - on the pitch, off the pitch and in the changing room. It looks a mess.

Apologies, typo, the Glazers loaded £800m of debt on United

Wenger deserves every bit of criticism he gets. He's a bastard, and a stupid one. Since The Invincibles he's actually thought he is GOD. Yuo can see it in his face the sheer indignation that anyone might question the GREAT WENGER!! He has destroyed everything he has created with his pig ignorance and French arrogance. He doesn't care about Arsenal, he puts himself and his reputation above everything. He treats supporters like something on the bottom of his shoe with his annual lies. He's half a coach, the attacking half. As for the rest, he's an idiot - the worst manager in Europe at defensive strategy. He's become an embarrassment.

Wonderful post.I'll give you some advise.Do not take Pika seriously.He/She is not serious.

You are starting to make a fool of yourself.It's plain for everyone to see now.Save yourself the shame my friend

A quick few points. I didn't have the time to read through the comments earlier, I have been on the move all day, I glanced and responded to the comments made to myself.

Can we all try to be a little more civil with each other when views are conflicting.

Many people are mistaking my posts for a blind defence of the manager when a closer inspection of what I have written would make people see my views clearer.

Basically my points over the last few days are.

1) Wenger has made errors and we are going through an awful period
2) Sacking Arsene Wenger isn't as straight forward as people make out because we would need to find a new manager who could finish higher than fourth with a budget (transfers and wages)
3) Our conservative spending (transfers and wages) is what we do as a club and isn't down to Wenger

Without burning my arse by sitting on the fence, I can see both sides of the argument here. It is interesting to think that a defence that went the whole season unbeaten comprised of

Lauren - A former midfield player, converted into a right back to replace Lee Dixon
Toure - Another converted midfielder, young, very quick and athletic.
Campbell - Experienced free transfer. The only real natural defender
Cole - A former youth forward, who was thrown in at the deep end.

Not a George Graham defender in sight. All coached by Arsene Wenger and Pat Rice.

Going back to the main point yesterday. I am not looking for a list of problems that Wenger has not been able to fix. Let us say that Arsene Wenger retires and the board do not want to budge on the amount of money we put into the club.

How do we compete with the top sides with a new manager? Long term, how does he build a side that can match United, City and Chelsea?

ML - Thank you for responding and I will keep it very brief. My point has always been that Wenger has forgotten what made his teams successful in the period 1996-2006: an ability to defend. That included the Invincibles. It isn't the case now. Nor has it been since 2008. My understanding of the financial position is a reasonably well informed one - yes he has constraints, but there is a significant budget there to spend which he chooses not to. He wants to prove people wrong and that his way will succeed (such an opinion got him into trouble in his last season at Monaco.

Gooner4Life - (1) The current financial climate hurts if you are in a poor financial position yourself. Arsenal are not - just read the accounts. Wenger is trying to extract value at all times, assuming that a cheeky offer will be accepted by other clubs who he assumes need to accept the bid. No other club is currently on a Leeds-style fire sale at the moment. Yes the market is arguably inflated, but you have to pay market prices. You can't pay 2001 prices in 2011. (2) if the plan was to get experiences players to bring along the young ones, well that hasn't happened as you have pointed out. Trusting in youth hasn't worked and would not be expected to reasonably work. He should have gone out and rectified that.

My posts have not been designed to cause offence. I have tried to put forward a rational argument, rather than jump to blind conclusions or be offensive about other posters (which is unnecessary). There is a minority of Arsenal fans who think enough is enough. This minority will grow in the coming months unless something changes.

DG,

I will respond when I return home this morning. Although I disagree with some of your points of view, I would like to thank you for respectfully putting your opinions over in a coherent, well thought out manner. Makes debate far more enjoyable than the likes of James who have to resort to insults. You are always welcomed here.

Old Goon,

Thank you for the comment, I agree with so much of what you say yet disagree with so much and the same goes for Pika.

I find myself wedged massively in the middle of this debate and totally see for and against both sides of the argument.

Arsenal were never a small club who were not successful before Arsene Wenger. I supported the Arsenal from the George Graham days and we were the second most successful side back then behind the mighty Liverpool who were doing what Manchester United are today.

We didn't play the exciting football that we have done since Arsene Wenger took over but neither did the league as a whole. Having said that, our 92 season was very enjoyable.

Arsenal were a big club before Arsene and will continue to be a big club after Arsene leaves the club.

Where I totally back Pika's argument is where so many people sneer and disrespect Arsene Wenger. His achievements cannot be grouped in with managers like Terry Neill.

The football landscape has moved on, while we have the 4th biggest wage bill in the country which is still below four other teams. We either cannot or haven't been willing to compete in the transfer market with our rivals.

If you stuck Arsene Wenger at Everton and gave all of the Everton squad a pay rise to make them the 4th highest paid club and Arsene got Everton in the CL season after season for 14 years in a row would that be a seen as failure because he didn't manage to over achieve more than gigantic spenders ahead of us?

Contrary to popular belief, I am not this 'AKB' who does not see anything wrong with what our manager does. I just get the feeling that so many fans assume that we are racing from the same starting block. We are not. Every summer we are hunting around trying to find players to bring us closer to our rivals but the budget our manager has to play with is nowhere near our rivals. This has been the case since Wenger turned up. But those who want Wenger out do not acknowledge this.

Am I scared of change? I would say yes I am, you know why? Because I do not want the same type of thing that happened to Charlton to happen to us. Obviously not to that extent but the principle remains.

Charlton were floating around in midtable under Alan Curbishley, he had been there for years and got them up from the Championship into the Premier League. He had been working to his constraints and keeping them as an established PL side. Building on what he had each year, having to sell his best players because financially stronger clubs out there twisted his boards arm (Scott Parker for example)

Charlton fans were fed up. They wanted to push on, they had enough of midtable mediocrity. So they sacked him and brought someone else in. Bang, Charlton have nose dived out of the League and it will take a miracle for that club to be in the same position as they were as everyone around them is so much stronger financially. If only the kept him and backed him more to make Charlton a stronger outfit instead of throwing all what he has done down the drain and taking another path.

Now, this could have gone the other way. I cannot remember who replaced him but he could have worked even better with the money he had, could have had the strengths that Curbishley had but also had better motivational skills and tactically stronger. That manager could have pushed Charlton in the CL or Europa places today.

While we are not Charlton and should never be a midtable club, the same applies to the work Wenger is doing. Or to put it better had done until now. Of course if we stay at the bottom end of the table then serious decisions have to be made because there will be massive problems. We cannot stick with a manager who cannot motivate his team but I know for a fact that we will climb the league and finish in the top 4,5. Is that good enough? No, we are bigger than that but I don't think our position is solely down to Arsene's management, I think he needs to be backed much more by the people behind him.

Without knowing facts, I believe that Wenger is taking plenty of flack for the club choosing to concentrate far more on the financial side of the club rather than the playing side. David Dein argued as much before he was ousted. I am not going into the whole Dein savior nonsense. He wanted to move to Wembley and that would have been crap but he also sold his shares for riches. Good luck with that but he knew that Arsene would struggle to compete with richer clubs during the stadium move. We have, we cannot bridge that gap on our transfer budget and wages.

4th highest wages is not first. If we were first then we would have kept hold of Nasri, Flamini and many others who jumped ship for more cash. If it was an even playing field, we would not be trophyless during this period. No way no how.

I have a problem when people assume that getting rid of Wenger will solve all our problems because manager x will come in and spent what he likes and we will then compete with the other big clubs of world football. It is not like that, and I fear that removing Wenger will expose what I am trying to put across. By that point, it will be too late.

The clubs plan may well be to hope that the financial fair play rules are enforced correctly, our sponsorship deals will be renegotiated and our stadium debt will be paid for. That along with the vast amount of quality youngsters we have in our squad will be ready to dominate then I am sure the future of this club will be very bright. We will be in a wonderful position then but that is in a few years time.

The here and now is not as straight forward. The question is, how do we bridge the gap until then?

OBVIOUSLY IM REFERRING TO OLD TRAFFORD ....dont make me believe you have the intelligence of a knitting nanny.....

He doesn't care about Arsenal

that comment just shows how clueless you really are

AND I BET USMANOV CARES HUH ........

Apologies Pika but you remind of people who do not question things. A bit like people who believed the Earth was flat or the Earth was the centre of the universe despite Galileo's and Copernicus' findings or people who don't believe in evolution and Darwinian theory despite all of the supporting evidence (not that I am comparing myself or OldGoon (with all due respect) to those great thinkers).

I wish I could be so blissfully believing/gullible (take your pick). In fact, I am 99% convinced you are a wind-up merchant because EVERY Arsenal fan knows the defence is sh*t, tactically things are wrong and the balance of the squad is not right. If you cannot admit and I am sure Mean Lean sees those same problems, then there is something wrong with your eyesight or your ability to hear the other side of an argument (which will not stand you in good stead).

I reserve my right to criticise and personally I think the blame lies with Arsene Wenger notwthstanding the great things he has done for the Club. Either he goes or he needs to change tact drastically in January (and bring in some real quality to ensure the season can be saved) because losing RvP and Vermaelen next Summer as they enter the last year of their contract is not worth thinking about.

pika - ..."by doubting him questioning him and cosnidering him finished or unable to manage."

Are you sure pedantic george is not your long lost brother ? You sound so alike. Or maybe it's just something in that North Korean air ?
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i dont need your apology .i know what im saying and i know why i support arsenal and wenger ..and guess what..it has nothing to do with trophies but purely for the values and principlas this man believes in

i do not want to see arsenal to become soem whore like city or chelsea to win soem titles ..i can wait for when the landscpae is clear to take advanatge

if you want to castigate your club ..by all means do so ..but expect to be put at yurplace when you show such disrespect.

not everyone agrees with your black and white attitude

and like hell if we allow the sheep to jeopardise the fortunes of our club

.yet you forget that he is the one who puts food on your table ..........

the "your" here means the arsenal table ..not your home per se ..please dont get offended again ...

what shoudl the united fans do to ferguson then for putting the future of their club at the hands of the banks ??


or does fergie escape criticisim because he sold the club assets and won trophies with BORROWED money ???

tactics ..? lol the old gaffer has played twice ryan giggs man to man mark on xavi ...them two games were not even a contest after 10 minutes...

yet wenger with an inferior squad beat them ..in fact came back from 0-1 down with in-game tactical changes, a high defensive line and open football.........

pika - Oh we pressed the reset button alright. 2006 marked the end of our successful era and the start of ours and Wenger's, decline.In fact, as far as the league is concerned, it started in 2004.
So now that we've used the "reset", pika wants to keep us on "pause" and "rewind". Ultimately however, someone will press "stop", and "EJECT".
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pika - "no,he is particularly stupid"

Wow. That's some character reference !
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what shame you muppet ? i dont feel shame for sticking up for my manager who has transformed us.

for me its impossible not to respect him.

you can do as you please but expect to be put at your place.

i dont understand ....you think ferguson is a better manager than wenger ?

lol..is that why he has to sell his clubs assets to remain competitive ?

every manager has his prons and cons ..it depends on what you look at in football and what pleases you.

if you like 11 cheats diving all over the place and intimidating refs and winning with lucky ricoches after spending 600 million then go on and follow them.

pika - I'm not a doctor, but it's apparent you're displaying distinct signs of paranoia, along with your delusional state. A course in anger management wouldn't go astray, either.
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Old Goon - What can I say ? Breathtaking stuff. I salute you, sir. You have obviously done much in-depth research.You really put pika and his A.K.B. mates, back in their box. It's clear they place him on a pedestal, to the point where ( to them ), he IS the club.( Mean Lean - take note ). That is absolutely intolerable.

Funny you should mention Herbert Chapman. I have a book that features him, and was just about to post a mention of him and his role in our history. (QUOTES ); " He joined us in 1925 from Huddersfield Town.Up to that time Arsenal had not won a single major honour. "He was one of the greatest footballing visionaries of his time, and made revolutionary innovations on and off the field of play." * ( * no Wenger, you weren't the first to do so ).

Five years later, he took Arsenal to the F.A. Cup final, and won it. Arsenal then went on to dominate the 1930's, winning five league titles in the next eight seasons *.( * has Wenger ever done that in his entire 15 years with us ? )

You're right, Old Goon, we are Arsenal. We should not accept mediocrity and complacency any longer. WENGER OUT !
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pika - If we're Little Englanders, then you must be Little Hitler. I suggest you quit while you're behind.
NEWS FLASH ! " Police are investigating the theft of Arsene Wenger's statue from the club premises."

Now come on, pika. Haven't you gone a bit too far this time ?
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Man utd. Killa - A second opinion - I think he IS serious. Seriously deranged.
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Mean Lean,

Thank you for the reply.

Firstly may I put you you right on your misintepretation of my comments on the last three years of Terry Neil. I was comparing it with the past three years under Arsene and was not comparing the two mens tenures, as a whole- much as you were comparing Charlton to Arsenal in a particular context not as a whole. As I said Arsene is a great Arsenal manager, while Terry was a relative failure.

I do not as a rule make comments on blog sites and only interjected yesterday because a particular contributor was debasing Arsenals history in a rather crude way and with a number of factual inaccuracies. I would have, perhaps, made another comment or two but the same contribtor began to make intimations about racism/xenophobia and, as I am not not British myself, but am commenting on an English football club, was a little uncomfortable with this and decided to call it a night.

As you have had the courtesy to reply I felt I should acknowledge.

In answer to your question about bridgng the gap. I believe that we have the finances to compete at the moment. The last published figures showed Arsenals wages at 124m & Man Utds at 133m. (although ours have been published more recently so theirs wuld be somewhat higher I'd guess)The differrence is not very big. United reward their best players with huge contracts we tend to have relative partity for all. .Large differences in players earnings has the disadvatage of causing jealousy amongst the squad players but also acts as a motivation to improve, as the rewards are massive.Our system falls on the fact that no matter how well our best players do their only means of a substantial pay rise is to find another club. I would rather cause irratation amongst my squad players(with the hope that they will up their game to get a better contract) than have a world class players earn little more than a bench warmer, with the result that he looks for greener pastures. Man utds are miles behind Chelea(180m) in terms of wages yet have won the league 4 times out of five. Simply because Ferguson & his club has overachieved. Arsene is not neccessarily underachieving he is playing par golf so to speak. But remember that when Wenger won the league he was overachieving to a collossal degree. George Graham did the same. These men set their own standards & unfortunately must now be judged by those standards. If he overachieves, as he once did, ther is no gap to bridge. Overachieving is what made him great. Overachieving is what continues to make Ferguson great. Its a tough ask but thats why he's paid 6m a year and why he's manager of Arsenal. I fully agree that the main problem in this team is confidence. This has been erroded over time by blowing the league in 2008, 2010, 2011, losing a final in 07, 2 semis in 09. It culminated horribly in the Carling Cup final. This team had the quality to have won so so much but had the mental weakness to throw each and every trophy away. Confidence has been rock bottom since Birmingham.

This is my biggest worry about Arsene Wenger. Once upon a time he was so bulish in the face of set backs. Now he talks of trophies for third place. Is this his way of saying 'I have pushed these players to the edge of the diving board time and again but for the life of me I can't figure out how to make them jump? Does he still believe and can he make these players believe? This is entirley in the realms of hypothesis, I fully admit.

I think 6th and a cup win, this season, would benefit this team far more than fourth and no trophy. The belief that is gained from winning is of far greater benefit, long term, than the 20m Champions league money. The club can easily afford to absorb one season out of this competition. Most people would not agree with this, I'm sure.

I think the debate around Arsene Wenger has become so polarised that you and most others missed the main point of my post entirely. I was seeking to make the point that regardless of who is manager we should always support the club and that defending Arsenes position should not come down to belittling our marvelously successful club. I was also pointing out that the last few years, for a club of our stature, cannot be called a success-something that if his body language at the end of the past few seasons is anything to go by Arsene Wenger agrees with.


You stated that you are in the middle of the debate as if you were certain that I was of the belief that Arsene Wenger should be fired. The most insulting thing I said of him was that after six years without a trophy it is right that people are QUESTIONING his position. Which is very differnet from demanding his public execution. This is something you frequently do yourself. I deliberately did not, involve myself at all, in the should he stay or should he go debate.

People read things into what I said which were not intended at all. If you're not screaming blue murder at Wengers detractors you must want him shot?I will defend our great club and it's history over any individual, even a great manager. I make no apologies for that. Otherwise if Arsene left for PSG in the morning I would have to start suppprting them instead. (Which would give me less of a headache at the moment). Fans will always call for the managers head when things are not going well. They always do. It's the nature of the job and at Arsenal the demands and expectations are very high and thus the criticism often harsh.

People should not be so black and white on this issue. It is possible to want Wenger to go, with reservations or to say with reservations.

The board have given him 20m to spend so I think it would be rediculous to sack him until he gets the chance to see if the new players can turn the thing around. Why give him the money at all otherwise?

So I will exit the debate(& retire from the blogosphere) on the ultimate cop out that I will 'judge him in May!'.

Old Goon - Yes, the reason I became an Arsenal supporter was that magic night of 26th May 1989. The title race had come down to the wire. It was between us and Liverpool. We were level on points if I recall, and the only way we could win the title was through a clear two goal margin, to give us a better goal difference.
It couldn't be tougher. We had to beat Liverpool exactly 2-0 at Anfield. Liverpool were the hot favourites. Just about everyone gave us no chance of doing it. But we toughed it out, and held firm in defence. Then Alan Smith scored in the 53rd minute. But one goal was NOT enough. Liverpool were content to see out the game, knowing it was sufficient to clinch it for them.Right into injury time however, in the 92nd minute, Michael Thomas did the unthinkable.The Gunners fans went ballistic.A truly great memory.

What made the win more pleasing to me, was that Liverpool had won so much in the previous years, that I wanted a DIFFERENT team to win the league for a change. That team was Arsenal. And they had won me over with their fantastic achievement.
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Yes pika, whatever you say, pika.
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Ha ! I'm enjoying this. After endless posts of falsely accusing me of being a Spurs supporter, pika himself has been exposed as the real imposter. What goes around, comes around, eh, fruitloop ?
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pika - I think we all know what stick you beat. And who you think of as you do it.
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Mean Lean - I too, have made similar points in my previous posts about wages/debts. Doublgooner ( above ) details it more clearly. There's your answer again. We should pay players on merit, not on potential. And we shouldn't be paying the kids big salaries until they've proved themselves, otherwise they have little incentive to perform to their true ability.

This can be changed by the board altering their priorities.Scrap the wage parity scheme. Other clubs don't have it, why should we ? Get rid of deadwood, and stop buying every kid thinking they will be the next Ronaldo. Most won't be. Do this, and maybe we CAN compete with the others. You don't need an I.Q. of 200 to see this.
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Yes, pika, whatever you say.pika.
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I think pika likes Wenger.
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A true Gooner writes!

Spectrum, CH Gooner..., The use of 'YOUR by Pika reminds me of the old saying..'The pot calling the kettle black '... People (especially Spectrum) have been consistently accused on this site for being imposters just for being critical of Wenger.Pika is not only an imposter- he/she knows nothing about what it means to be a Real Gunner-Pika is a Wenger supporter at best.

Thumbs up my friend.Fine post by all standards.Dont get worked up about Pika.He makes no sense whatsoever with all the stuff he types.It's always about what Wenger has done for the club.Has someone ever thought about what the club has done for Wenger?I think not!

Don't be silly. If Graham had not left Wenger that back 5 then he never would have won anything, so The Invincibles never would have happened.

You need continuity to be successful, and Graham created the platform which led to Wenger's success which, in turn, created the conditions for the Invincibles. This is so obvious that even an 8 year old could figure it out.

Idiot. It's a FACT. When Wenger took over Arsenal were the second most successful club behind Liverpool. That is based on trophies won. Stop making up crap to support your stupid theories.

He talks like Wenger too - maybe he is Wenger. Football is not about trophies - idiot. If you could see 100 years into the future and reported back to all those supporters that their club would win nothing for 100 years, they'd all stop supporting that club. Football is about winning, no matter how realistic your chance is - it's based on that hope, that one day you will win or you will continue to win. Without that, there's no point existing. It's the very definition of sporting competitiveness.

lol....the arsenal i found was finishing 12th and 7th and losing european finals due to a lob from 60 meters in the 94th minute of the game...i remember chants of boring boring arsenal ..and a team of "allerdyce/pulis" level of technique players who would rough opponents up and steal wins with a 1-0...the professional conduct of them players totally questionable not to mention their addictions and clinic problems. yet for some reason in the english frame of thinking these guys are legends (and rightly so for their achievements) but , that was in another era of football alltogether. the modern equivelant of that arsenal today would be stoke and bolton. in other words..what the chelsea fans feel for terry ..the arsenal ones felt for martin/tony ..the mancs feel for keanne... even though all three and, taking emotion aside for a minute, are the definition of a c*nt.

you saw the acme of them i saw their decay. and from a joke of a club we became a point of reference in world football. and the figurehead behind all that has been arsene wenger.

i dont know what idea you have on football, but wenger;s ideas on football find me 100% agreeable. yes a club must be self financed and self sustainable, yes a club must have academies to produce players, yes the club must have a nice clean easily accessible viewer friendly stadium for its clients/fans/customers/followers/supporters/tourists, yes a club must invest in facilities and scouting and aim to create and sell players if not needed in first team and raise profits, yes a club must have a strong first team and aim for the top and win whatever trophy is available. but for all that to click you need a positive environment and not this sick detestable atmosphere that exists which transmits and pollutes the team the players and manager. the whining and critisising does not help. especially when you dont even know what youre whinging about.

this is where the hardcore supporters start slapping people around in the ground when they see some idiot booing when the team is trying to win a game. this is where the hardcore organise themselves and create some fkn noise with synchronised chanting that will lift the players. not yappie morons with their relatively bought scarves offering their opinion.lol.we have reached the point where the emirates is filled with 59,000 managers ffs.. if you aint going to the ground to support and sing for the team what are you going there for then? to swear at them? to make them lose the match? bravo well done ..what can i say...no wonder people say arsenal fans are the worst fans...where are the flags the drums the flares the chants which sound like military marches to keep the palyers going ? repeat after me :

just lift your heads and play some ball and score them goals
beat the f*cking lot of them away or hooooooooooome
weve come to back you up
as if you were our sons
stand up. fight.win. we are the arsenal
lallalalalallalaaaaaaaaaaaaaalala

the football that you play is just spectacular
the way you pass it all the time just blows my mind
just stick it in the net
dont show no mercy yet
ar- sene we-nger you are my number one
lalalalalalalaaaalalallalalalalallala

lol...

something with a tempo you sh*theads..with rhythm. not that tedious arsenal fccccccc youre by far the greatest...yeah ok nice...something else? something more encouraging? what arsenal needs is supporters who will lift the team;s spirit. without it, it aint gonna happen. so take all your football science degrees and shove them where the sun dont shine to put it politely and return to the basics. support your tribe. and you will see the amount of responsibility the players will feel for you then.

He talks like Wenger too

thank you for the compliment. i only wish i could achieve 0,001% of what he has achieved as a professional manager ...

Trouble is the board is not ruthless enough . Full stop . Wenger has been great and still can be great - he should now move on - I don't mean sacked but perhaps take charge of our youth teams - thats where he will shine bringing through the young .
credit where credit is due -he has done fantastic for the club in the past

heres an example i have a sales manager who has been with me for years - but his teams is not achieving what my other teams are in terms of sales-its time to appoint another manager to that team — move the current manager to a more useful position within the company that way showing loyalty and also a sense of togetherness .
no one is at the top of their game forever -just like a player we have to move them on either sell them or move them to a postion within the team