Written by TL Gooner on Sunday, 29 May 2011 07:28

While they are a team  I hate with a passion, I must admit that they are the perfect role models for our trophy- less team. I don't hate them because they have won a lot in recent seasons or because they play beautiful football, I hate them for their tapping up of Fabregas, their disrespectful comments about our club- a club with a great history to be very proud of, and for their cheating on the pitch (waving imaginary cards, diving and surrounding the referee).

But, they are a similar team to us, one with similar philosophies and we only need to look at them for inspiration and faith in our policy and our quest for trophies. I have looked at the Spanish records and Barcelona went on a run between 1999 and 2005 of not winning anything. Not the Spanish league, not the Spanish cup, not the Champions league, not the Spanish league cup, not the annual Spanish raffle.

So that's six years without a trophy. Let me think, who does that remind me of? Hmm, let's see, oh yeah, Arsenal. We have gone six years without a trophy whilst we have invested in youth such as Fabregas, van Persie, Walcott, Song and Wilshere but to name a few. Just like Barcelona did in between 99 and 05. This was the time when Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique and Messi were coming through, at different stages just like our lads and their investment in youth has proven successful.

I'm surprised at how similar the two situations are. The likes of Fabregas, Wilshere and Ramsey need only look at that team and think 'that could be us in a few years, there's no need to panic about lack of trophies in recent years, look at Barcelona's records'. There is plenty of reason for faith and we have plenty of talent in our squad to achieve something like Barcelona in the years to come, and our chances will be enhanced if the likes of Fabregas and Nasri stay and show their belief in this team of very talented players. And we couldn't ask for a better manager to guide us towards similar achievements in Arsene Wenger. We also have the financial stability that Barcelona don't have, therefore it's not just a short term plan,it's a long term one.

Barcelona- 1999-2005   NO TROPHIES
Arsenal- 2005- 2011   NO TROPHIES

Mean Lean's Response

It is quite funny really, on one hand we are being told that 'project youth' has failed and Arsene needs to stop this 'vanity project' a term which really riles me. Then on the other hand Barcelona are being lauded for being such a great team yet they have implemented the same type of strategy but a few years earlier.

Not only do Barcelona have the advantage of going down this route earlier than we did but they also have a much larger array of talent to choose from. In fact that can go around picking up the best talent around Spain and bring them to their academy whilst Arsenal are only allowed to pick up kids in a 90 minute radius of the training ground or something like that.

Without knowing the facts exactly, I would imagine that it would have been easier for Barcelona to have kept their developing players through the period 1999-2005 where as it seems like the spotlight is shining down on our squad much harder. Clubs around the world are waiting to pick the likes of Cesc, Nasri and others.

Part of the reason why Barcelona are so bloody good these days is because they have been playing together since they were kids. Real Madrid are dreaming if they think they can buy a team that can have the same understanding and combinations as Barcelona.

Before the doom swarms my way, I understand that we are a long way behind Barcelona. They are somewhat of the finished product even though the likes of Messi, Iniesta and Pedro are 24 and younger (madness really) but we are still aiming to get there.

I do not see any reason why the likes of Wilshere, 19 and Ramsey 20 cannot reach those levels in three years time. It is down to Wenger to get the squad winning trophies whilst keeping our younger talent at the club so they can all peak together.

A very difficult task and one that our manager is being massively criticised for trying to do.

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Comments (88)

• 30-May-2011 10:45 | | Iron Man
  

  The only glaring error with your comparison is the fact that Barca went through a sucession of different managers during their dry spell. When something looked like it wasn't working, the club actively went out of their way to change it. I'm not saying that I want Wenger out but I think it's very selective to ignore this fact.

• 30-May-2011 10:52 | | MeanLean
  

  You are right but I guess it also shows that changes of manager does not always mean that they will be successful as during that period they failed to win anything even with new managers, new ideas etc.
  
  What didn't change was the youth policy and it was that which brought them success first through Rijkaard and now Guardiola.
  
  I suspect that even Avram Grant could win league titles with this Barcelona team because when it mattered, the strategy of the club didn't change

• 30-May-2011 11:00 | | podge
  

  Just goes to show that Wenger needs to tell the fans and critics to shut up and get on with his project which is close to being completed. Thats not to say everything's fine and there's no need for change I think the coaching needs to change. We have problems in defence not with personel but coaching Sagna(world class maybe the best) Vermaelen(world class) Djouruo(one of the best in prem will only improve) Clichy(world class).The back up Squllaci(experienced and proven in France and Spain) Koscielney(limitless potential his improvment over last season shows so much promise) Eboue(valuable squad player better than most right backs and right winger always a threat going forward) Gibbs(will be a star in a couple of years starting for his club and country). Our first choice back 4 is incredible, as individuals any side in the world would welcome them and the back up is of champions league standard but as a unit they conceded 43 goals in the premiership last season(bar TV5 who was injured and yes must of those goals were conceded with the Squillaci+Koscielney partnership)but the point is clear. Arsenal's defence is less than the sum of its parts. The only way to solve this is coaching, whether thats focusing on defence in training or hiring a new coach I'm not sure but I know signing a new defender is not the best answer

• 30-May-2011 11:07 | | MeanLean
  

  Actually a better way of making my point would be..
  
  Barcelona sacking Johan Cruyff after four years without winning a trophy and then to go a completely different way because it is essentially he that has made Barcelona embark on their 'project youth vanity project' which has pretty much given them the spine to what is often labelled as the best club side ever.
  
  As we do not have a director of football, it is our manager that is implementing this strategy at Arsenal and if we change the manager then that could well change. Who knows.

• 30-May-2011 11:16 | | goonergal
  

  Good article, because barca kids all grow up together they learn how to play together, and are totally schooled in the barca game, Wenger is trying to instill the same philosophy, and culture into our kids,this cannot be acheived overnight, as the barca stats prove, he is far more respected out of england than wthin, I know he makes mistakes but he is after all a man not a machine, he can be stubborn, but I think a light may have switched on in his head, watching him at the end of the season was not pleaseant , and in reality some of the players he put his trust in have let him down, comparing to barca helps to see the bigger picture, arsenal and barca have a strange relationship, we sell them players, which incidently they have not finished paying for, and wenger offers their kids an opportunity to grow. I expect to see a lot of movement this summer and I am sorry to say Denilson's time is up, Almunia will be fine somewhere else, he has been judged by the fans and the relationship is beyond repair. I would like to see a quality replacment for Clichy ~ a DM to challenge Song ~ and a real goal poacher to support Van Persie, my cup is still half full for now

• 30-May-2011 11:27 | | Tom
  

  There are some similarities.
  
  But it was the signings of Etoo (£25 million), Ronaldinho (£15 million) plus Davids, Van Bommel and Giuly that turned Barca from stylish also rans into champions.
  
  It's a lesson that Wenger would be foolhardy to ignore.

• 30-May-2011 11:44 | | MeanLean
  

  Another point worth bringing up is that Barca didn't have to move stadium therefore they were able to spend plenty of money to supplement the quality they had coming through

• 30-May-2011 11:51 | | Kharadonha  - Gooner
  

  I'm very disapointed to Gooners coz we understand football better than the current team of Arsenal, yet we are ignored by our own Manager Arsene Wenger. when you compare Arsenal with Barcelona you need to point out one thing and that they don't play their individual style they play the Barcelona way which is Barcelona vision. My beloved Arsenal don't have its own vision so that the players can respect it first before going for individual accolades. another problem we have here at Arsenal is Arsene Wenger for not understanding that as a manager you can never produce a striker that can score 20 goals a season. then why didn't he buy just like Barca did if he wanted Arsenal to play and challenge for honours just like Barca did. he knew that we're short of strikers and attackers who want to win in Europe but did nothing. Look at Barca for instance, they knew they don't have the player with T Henry touch so they went for him and who did we bring to void the gap left by T Henry? no one so the blame should go to Arsene for not knowing that young players alone can never take you anywhere. We need someoen like Scott Parker to get the best out of these players.

• 30-May-2011 12:40 | | Iron Man
  

  Very valid point. But seems to suggest that in order to emulate Barcelona's success, spending and spending big on recognised talent is essential. They show there is a difference between having a youth policy and solely relying on youth players.

• 30-May-2011 13:37 | | MeanLean
  

  Absolutely, but you could argue that we have been doing just that with the likes of Arshavin, Nasri & Sagna. But yes, to get close to that level we will need to add quality.

• 30-May-2011 13:51 | | Man United Killer
  

  You are also ignoring the fact that,it also means it was a change in manager that finally got them on their way.That is what you are afraid of.You always selectively select 'your facts'.Not nice.

• 30-May-2011 13:55 | | MeanLean
  

  No it wasn't.
  
  It was the fact that they continued to stick with their youth policy that made them win trophies. Do you believe that a change of manager is always the best solution? Will it guarantee trophies? If so, why?

• 30-May-2011 14:10 | | Man United Killer  - Tippy tappy never shooty
  

  Tippy tappy cant get any better than the way Barca do it.But they have players who are prepared to take a shot from a distance plus goal scoring is a shared responsibility.In Arsenal many players want to pass a ball when the obvious and sensible things is to shoot.As much as I like JW,this is one of the areas of his football that he needs to improve.
  
  We must defend from the first man if we want to be like Barca.They work so hard its not even funny.
  and finally they find the need to spend on some 'real quality' to supplement their youth.Not Arsene.

• 30-May-2011 14:11 | | Man United Killer  - funny world
  

  Haha...so you are finally agreeing with someone that we need to sign reall quailty players eh? So you will agree as long as its not coming from me.Anyways,its nice to see you on this side of the divide.Welcome home!

• 30-May-2011 14:21 | | Man United Killer  - It has to be one of two things.
  

  It has to be on of two things either you ignored the facts or you are trying to arouse humor.I am assuming that you know your history.Barca did not win a thing for 5 years.We have already gone 6.And if nothing is done about the current squad,a 7th successive trophyless year will be on the cards.
  Secondly, Barca was building a squad in this 'fallow' period.They were not selling off their best players and buying substandard players like we have done or whats worse failing to replace departures--and playing half of the squad out of position.
  Finally, even Barca found the need to sign world class players to complement their youth who have in anycase been playing together since they were 10-15 years of age for most part.
  So you see,its true that there are differences but Barca were making strides towards a plan.We on the other hand are digressing from the plan by holding on to players who are obviously not good enough and to make it worse,we are adding more and more year in year out.

• 30-May-2011 14:23 | | MeanLean
  

  Where are you getting this madness from?
  
  I have been saying for weeks that our squad need improving. I just don't think we are as bad as you say we are.
  
  I also believing in what our manager is trying to do. Obviously we are not perfect, I have never claimed that we are.

• 30-May-2011 14:30 | | Man United Killer
  

  You also forgot to add that Barca finished runners up 2 times during the 5-year hibernation period.We on the other hand finished 2nd only 04-05,the year in which we won the FA cup when we had winner like TH14.Freddy L and Robert P in the side.Does this hit you as a fantastic coincidence or is it just an arrow that points to the fact that we have no winners in this current side?go figure!

• 30-May-2011 14:33 | | Man United Killer
  

  Wenger is not trying to emulate Barca because if he was,he wouldnt be holding on to the likes of Bendtner,Denilson,Diaby,Squalliaci...my fingers hurt..its an endless list.

• 30-May-2011 14:40 | | Man United Killer
  

  I do not agree that it's only the youth policy that made them win the trophies.It's also up to the manager to make that call that brings in the last piece of the puzzle in terms of 'real quality' players that can give the youngsters the final push.Rijkaard did just that.One of the reasons I respect the man so much.Something Wenger is not willing to do.
  And true, I agree with you that change in manager is not always the solution but...but if the manger is not willing to take that final step,why the heck should he remain at the club.
  I feel at this point that wenger wants to build world beaters on a shoe string budget and its not going to happen.
  He needs to bring in real quality players to give the current squad the push they need.Can you imagine what our team would be with about 4 or 5 more world class additions playing the beautiful game?We would have no size.But no!Wenger wants his project to work without having to spend.shocking!

• 30-May-2011 14:42 | | MeanLean
  

  It is very difficult to have a debate with you when everything is so black and white with nothing I'm between.
  
  You are comparing an experienced fully developed squad at the peak of their powers with players like Wilshere, Ramsey, Song and co. I am sure you can see it if you look objectively and not through the 'I want. Trophy now, Wenger out' glasses.

• 30-May-2011 14:48 | | Man United Killer
  

  Weeks????Isn't it funny that you have only been saying this for weeks?On which planet have you been?It only took a few weeks ago to notice that this squad needs to be strengthened not with quantity but quality.
  I am a little surprised that it took you so long to realize this for a team so 'claim' to watch closely.
  I am not saying I dont believe in what Wenger is tyring to do.It would be silly not to.all I am saying is we need proven world class quality to complement his work.Not more substandard players.
  why else would we be so close yet so far??
  And I am not saying we are so so bad.I have said on this site many times that we are close but we do need that final push.I also explained that this does not translate to spending crazy money.I dont approve of that....so there we go.We need to get out there and spend some reasonable money!

• 30-May-2011 14:56 | | Man United Killer  - you missed the point
  

  Dang! ML I will have you know that it's you who need to get those black and white or maybe the Wenger knows it all glasses taken off.
  you missed the point I was making.I am tyring to hammer home the point I made from before.That experience is key.Barca added that and they were back in business.
  Dont misinterpret me.If I expected the likes of Ramsey and Wilshere to win us trophies why dont I criticize them on here in my post..and why am I crying for experience when I expect Jack and Aaron to do the job.Heck! I dont even expect Cesc or Nasri to do it by themselve.They need help.That is all I am saying.
  Aaron himself has come out to say we may need some world class quality.(according to the media).That tells you of a kid who knows he is not ready to make that final step up and that is perfectly understandable.His time will come to take responsibility so I dont expect anything more than hard work and a cool head from the youngsters.
  Now its obvious you are the one who needs to take those glasses off

• 30-May-2011 17:12 | | TL Gooner  - MU Killer's manager policy
  

  MU K, I don't think getting rid of the manager solves things by itself, look at Chelsea, do you think they are doing things the right way? Look at what changing managers all the time has done for West Ham, and yet look at Man Utd and Arsenal who have kept faith in their managers and achieved a lot over the years.

• 30-May-2011 17:21 | | TL Gooner
  

  I'm going to stop arguing with MU Killer because he just see's things in such as balck and white manner and I'm surprised he still supports the team because all he does is yack on about what's bad about the club without considering any other circumstances and turns every point into an Arsenal slagging off fest.

• 30-May-2011 17:25 | | richie
  

  You missed a rather small but essential point ML- Barca outed Cruyff and then went back to him cap in hand to ask for his return. Eventually he did return under his own terms to become the puppet master. He is after all the reason Barca play the way they do. In fact the word from the Barca boys in Spain (I'm there now) is that Rijkaard was outed despite winning 2 league titles and the CL, because he crossed swords with the main man.
  
  The reason he argued with JC its said is that he wanted to buy some players in and not use predominantly the academy boys. That went against club policy, set by JC which said only exceptional talent to be bought in where no academy players are fit for purpose in that position. I'm not a Barca man but I have always been impressed with their allegiance to the Croyff way, which personally I regard as the right way.

• 30-May-2011 17:27 | | TL Gooner  - Growing up together
  

  Another point to make would be that Barcelona's players grew up togther at the club and learnt how to play with each-other, xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc so they know each-other well. The likes of Fabregas and Wilshere, Song, Ramsey etc have only just begun in the last year or two-some longer yes but our team has changed a lot in recent years and now it looks as though we have our future centre midfielders and now they can learn to play with eachother and get better as they go along, like Germany have been doing with Khedira, Ozil etc.

• 30-May-2011 17:31 | | Anonymous
  

  wenger should just spend its sad u know, barca spend big! 4rm eto'o, ronaldinho, ibra etc The current squad have, affelay, mascherano, keita, villa, thats the difference, we say we r financially stable bt we dnt spend anything, i'm a gooner, kroenke wil neva put food on my table even if we make 1billion profit! Bt a trophy wil make me happy!

• 30-May-2011 18:47 | | Man United Killer
  

  It's clear that we dont agree on a lot of things and that may or may not change but if you dont find the need to debate with me,that is up to you.I really dont mind.Your failure to recall some of my posts from the past before posting your comment makes it clear who is seeing things in black and white.Anyone who does not agree with you and your 'clique' of Wenger supporters is seeing in black and white. Now I will comment on anything I see fit because I am not one to label people.If you have followed my comments in the past,I have given credit where credit is due but I am not gonna sit here and act like all is nice and rosy.I am a realist.That said,I am an Arsenal supporter not an Arsene supporter and I have been since the sixties so dont try to turn me into one.You will be wasting your time.

• 30-May-2011 19:47 | | richie
  

  Muk am I wrong again or did you just invent the wheel? Check back everyone who posts on this blog, in fact everyone and his dog wants better player's for his team. In the year after Sol left I called for Arsene to sign a top class center half, because I've argued for years that no team has thus far won the EPL without a proper English CH. Not a Central Defender but a CH. Does that make me a prophet? No!
  The fact that so far I've been proven right does nothing for me, I wished AW had proven me wrong.
  
  Everyone including AW has said we need to strengthen. I just ain't in favor of the all change idea that the Arsene out brigade keep putting forward. As you know I've got no time for the AW out mob unless they name who they think can do better, otherwise there's nothing to discuss. As I said earlier I've always admired Barca for having the bottle to stick to their guns and stay true to their beliefs by bringing out a great squad with a few choice buy like Villa (an excellent goal poaching machine) Mascharano (a great defensive mid) Abidal and others.
  
  In fact contrary to popular chit chat Arsene has bought more players than have come from the youth project. I want Arsene to stick to his principles and I want our own to have the bottle to stay true to the Arsenal way and not cry when we don't have instant success. We used to have great fans home and away, who'd support us no matter how well we played. Unfortunately now we have fans who don't support period because many aren't Gooners, they get their tickets because the company's they work for are sponsors of the stadium.

• 30-May-2011 20:06 | | MeanLean
  

  See that is the part that gets me. You say you have been a supporter since the 60's, before my time. You have seen the club go through so many droughts, regularly finishing mid table playing awful football yet you act like this is the worst thing that has happened to Arsenal ever.
  
  Do I support Arsene? Yes because he is the Arsenal manager, just as I supported George Graham before him.

• 30-May-2011 20:14 | | richie
  

  I thought we had Thierry Henrys replacement, so did many others (when he got 25 goals in a season) including the manager many fools on this blog choose to replace AW, Mouronho. I don't really remember his name but it added up to Bye Bye, Buy me for loads. Many thought we'd got the fox in the box that we needed in Eduardo until his attempted assassination made him less than he could've been. In RvP we have a world class striker if we can keep him fit? Even this season I think all we've needed is a class act to partner him. Our chances created to chances taken is what lost us the league this year.

• 30-May-2011 20:21 | | richie  - Clarification
  

  P.S I meant when Sol left 1st time round for Portsmouth.

• 30-May-2011 20:29 | | MeanLean
  

  Ah, I didn't actually know that Barca got rid of Johan Cruyff.Getting him back must have been one of the most important things that they have ever done.

• 30-May-2011 20:35 | | richie  - the best type of supporters IMHO
  

  ML Your showing all the signs of becoming an old style 60's Gooner.
  In the old days our fans were like the Cop. We stood behind our manager and team and didn't think of instant success. We didn't think of buying superstar players either, hard working players, locals and those who kept trying were the ones we loved. Unfortunately Arsene's success has brought us fans without patience, who demand instant gratification.

• 30-May-2011 20:42 | | Man United Killer
  

  ML, this club as you rightly pointed out has been through worse times and I have seen a large portion of those dry days,so has most of the top top clubs--some have come and gone.I am concerned about the direction in which we are heading at the moment in terms of trying to win the league with a team swarmed with too average players.
  Arsenal has progressed through the years in terms of ambition and so have player wage demands and remuneration for staff and arsenal affiliates..not to speak of the amount of financial commitments expected from fans.So,if an ordinary man like me,a die hard fan for that matter, spends money about 30years worth of season tickets on a club that I love and ask that we at least show some ambition by signing world class players to complement our youth,I don't think I am asking too much.Football is dynamic so must we.period.
  Now you might be an Arsene fan-all well and good but I beg to differ.I will always be a respecter of our managers but not a fan who is blind to glaring errors that is made year in and year out without correction.I am sorry if that makes me a 'black and white perspective' person but all I am asking for is a few additions,a few departures and some tweaks to our style of play.I am not asking for Wengers head but if he is not willing to correct errors then surely he must go.Some of us were here long before he arrived and we will be here until the Good Lord calls us home.

• 30-May-2011 20:49 | | Man United Killer  - Question for Mr. Richie
  

  Richie, do you think Fabregas wants to leave Arsenal?And if he does do you know what his reasons might be?
  
  What about Nasri?

• 30-May-2011 20:54 | | richie
  

  ML Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. No! I don't remember Barca sacking JC but their chairman was publicly critical of him after he went 2 years without winning anything. Even though he was their most success manager and the longest serving I think. Sounds familiar me thinks The chairman drove him away and the fans turned on the chairman. The fans had rightly bought into Croyff's projects, attacking football and youth development.

• 30-May-2011 21:10 | | Iron Man
  

  I hate this perception that because I want my team to be successful that I am somehow spoilt/ungrateful/ a glory hunter. Just because things were bad in the past doesn't mean fans should just accept mediocrity in the present day. In the 60s Arsenal were a middle of the road team heading nowhere but now we are a world power and one of Europe's top teams and so the expectation to challenge for major honours regularly is not unreasonable. Fans are entitled to be annoyed at failure. Look at Man Utd. In the 70s and 80s they were nothing (relegated even) yet if they went just two years without success do you think any of them will sit there and say "well things were worse back in the day". I also think it's rude and disrespectful to say fans aren't patient and demand instant gratification. Like I say, the size and stature of the team right now should mean the club are challenging for something and achieving a degree of success year on year. I don't demand the league or champions league every year but give us something!

• 30-May-2011 21:40 | | richie
  

  I'll answer that in a roundabout way. I have it on good authority David Beckham when he returns to London (having been away for a while) makes straight for the Pie & Mash shop. Know what I mean? (said while tapping the side of his nose).
  
  Where to start? Climate, culture, food, family, language and going home. All that plus a youth project of attacking football spliced with a few additions of like minded special players with a manager who was your idol as a player. Who became a very close friend when your parents divorced. In fact on the day of the divorce to cheer the young kid the manager friend gave him his prized football shirt. Plus a very knowing football public who love attacking football, who'd treat you, a retuning son as a god. Is that enough? It would be for most.

• 30-May-2011 21:52 | | richie
  

  P.S. Can't imagine Nas leaving. So unlike Cesc can't think of a reason.
  Although I can imagine Samir's agent telling him to hold out till he gets the deal he wants.

• 30-May-2011 21:57 | | richie  - PPS
  

  Muk last post you claimed to have seen Barca beaten by Ruban Kasan? Where can I see the match?

• 30-May-2011 22:09 | | richie  - Akb
  

  Muk why would Arsene call you home?

• 30-May-2011 23:40 | | richie  - Perspectives Iron Man
  

  The one thing missing from your mini summation is the reason we are now big all over Europe. Mr Wenger. Before he came to Arsenal Arsene was well known in Europe for producing teams that played attractive attacking football, and he was also known for his player development. Thats why the great players came to grace us with their presence. This includes Dennis Bergkamp who signed for us before Arsene did, but knew of his imminent arrival.
  
  To claim we are owed a bit of silver wear every other year because we are now a big club is fallacious. Both Liverpool and Everton are big clubs but are no longer in the famed top 4 bracket. Its not a god given right. Personally I think things are being obscured by the sudden massive amounts of money in the EPL and one mans amazing unheard of success story. If not for Taggart and his drive where and how would the league success story look?
  
  I'm a life long Gooner who craves success for my club. The only thing is I'm greedy and I wanna win doing things our way with home grown youth playing great entertaining football. I purposely left out two elements that I think have been missing from our game of late.
  Fast Attacking. IMHO its the fast attacking football and clinical finishing that we've been missing, more than a solid defense. Our defense was sufficient, our finishing off of the chances we create wasn't. If we had finished off our chances at the same rate of success as ManU we'd have been champions in March.
  
  We constantly have to raise our game, but lets not abandon our principles while doing so. Lets keep our nerve like the Barca fans have over the years and enjoy not just the silver wear that I believe will come but the journey to get there too.

• 31-May-2011 02:24 | | Man United Killer
  

  Richie.you might wanna scan my words one more time.I mean I will be Gunner till my dying day.

• 31-May-2011 02:26 | | Man United Killer
  

  Exactly my point yet ML will call me a spoilt and start to type up a million things that were wrong in the past.Is it just me? or do we live in the here and now?

• 31-May-2011 02:33 | | Man United Killer  - Ribin-Barca
  

  Umm..that must have been 2 or 3 seasons ago though I saw the game.most likey 2.I cant remember but try youtube.I am sure you will find it.If you dont let me know.i will find you the link.
  Oh..there is the link Sir
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2SSYphZVuM

• 31-May-2011 02:35 | | Man United Killer  - Not teams performance?
  

  So you are saying that our teams inability to win trophies is not a driving factor for Cesc's rumored departure?Is that what you are saying?Just to be clear.

• 31-May-2011 09:59 | | MeanLean
  

  I don't know if that was directed at me Iron Man, I certainly haven't said that anyone is spoilt or anything like that. I certainly do not know why MUK has accused me of saying that when those words have never come out of my finger tips.
  
  My point to MUK was to show a little perspective. He has watched Arsenal during so many bad times yet when we win its because of the opposition and when we lose it is because Wenger is useless.
  
  I want Arsenal to win trophies and it upsets me when we don't, that is normal but I don't understand when Arsenal fans only spew negativity. Each to their own but I just do not understand it, that doesn't mean that I a) am content with not winning or b) that fans should not be disappointed in not winning trophies.

• 31-May-2011 11:26 | | Iron Man
  

  To play devil's advocate here, isn't it slightly contradictory to talk about doing things "the Arsenal way" while using the Barcelona blueprint?
  
  I didn't say we are owed success, I'm not demanding big money transfers and being trophyless isn't the end of the world but I think supporters shouldn't be shouted down for having high expectations. Nor should I think people should be told they should appreciate things now because they were worse before. It's all relative. Football now, for better or for worse, is a vastly different game to what it was even 20 years ago let alone 50!
  
  Fortunately, thanks almost wholly to Arsene Wenger, Arsenal are in the upper echelon finally. Now we are here, we should always be looking to improve. I'm over the moon we're not Liverpool or Everton but at the same time, I look at Man Utd and Barcelona with envy. We've beaten both this season so we aren't that far away from them yet we cannot seem to match their achievements. United are banging on about '19' today yet when we last won the league we were on 13 to their 15 and in all honesty, looked better placed to chase down Liverpool's record than they were yet have just stagnated. My biggest fear is that the club is resting on it's laurels. When Wenger talks about being happy just to qualify for the champions league, it grates because the ambition of the club such as it is right now, ought to be greater than that.

• 31-May-2011 11:33 | | Iron Man
  

  Wasn't directed at you mate. Just a general rant.
  
  If there is some sort of 'divide' I generally like to think I fall in the middle. I'll be as negative as I am positive.

• 31-May-2011 12:00 | | Anonymous
  

  Muk you missed the point! It was a joke. You know Muk tongue in cheek
  from Richie AKB the good lord calling you home=AW as God I was attempting to add a little hunour to all the ranting.

• 31-May-2011 12:05 | | richie  - how the F*** its always automatic
  

  My own LT doesn't know me? I'm not Anonymous! I'm not a number!

• 31-May-2011 12:52 | | Man United Killer  - Anonymous
  

  Dang! I totally missed it...my bad!

• 31-May-2011 12:59 | | Man United Killer
  

  No no no no no no ML.I have never accused opposition of being rubbish whenever we win.I always say we buckle when we need to show up.but most of the time,I am not over excited but rather I like to remain cautiously optimistic because this team has truck loads of inconsistency mixed with all the potential we have.
  But I have never claimed that the opponent is rubbish just because we beat them...so there! Neither did that come out of my finger tips.

• 31-May-2011 13:04 | | Man United Killer  - Mean Lean
  

  ML, its funny but It seems you have missed all that I have been saying.you ask me to show some perspective..fair enough.I have said time and again that this team is not far away.All we need to do IMHO is to add some world class experience and tweak our tippy tappy a little bit..and then of course learn how to defend as a unit.
  If you have noticed, I have never blamed the defenders per se for some of the goals that we concede because I believe our midfielders and attackers dont do enough to help for most part.That said,I am lost as to what more perspective you want me to show.If you want to me ignore the fact that Wenger is refusing to resolve the problem at hand,It will not happen.Wenger has to resolve these issues.now!

• 31-May-2011 15:01 | | richie  - Iron man my perspective
  

  The Arsenal- Barca comparision goes far beyond the here and now. I think the point is being missed about Arsene Wengers mission at Arsenal. That is a big bold statement. Now lets see if I can justify it?
  
  Arsene is only a little younger (2years) than Croyff (Who I saw playing at highbury with Ajax) they come from a generation older than mine who had the pleasure of watching and understanding the all attacking style of Borrussia Monchengladbach. I saw BM play too and listened to everyone say it was something new, but I hadn't been watching the game long enough before that to understand how new it all was.
  
  Arsene is from the area of France that used to be part of Germany and says it was German football that influenced him the most. BM were local to him. When Croyff Neeskins and Micheals changed the playing style of Ajax into the now famed total football most everyone saw the influence fom Borrussia Monchengladbach. Subsequently .the Ajax Academy began to churn out players that became the stars of European football. So the blue print was set, not only for Ajax but for others too. Including Arsene.
  
  When Croyff left Ajax he went to Barca, where the Ajax process and blue print was copied. With Guardiola the circle has been completed for Barca, he was a player raised in the Barca (Ajax) style that is now the manager. The other managers before weren't raised at La Masia (Barca's academy) they were mainly Ex Ajax players.
  
  At Arsenal I think Arsene saw the opportunity to sell a troubled teen that cost him little (Anelka) to Real for enough money to build a fantastic training facility that would lay the foundations for Arsenal to build our own academy. Without an Academy to rely on Arsene used the only other option, available to him players from France and Frances ex colonies of Africa.
  
  I think contrary to perception Arsene is an equal opportunity employer because years ago when English players weren't expensive he had them playing for him at Monaco. When others (Like Chelski) saw what he was doing with the French African players they too jumped on this rich source of talent. Several of Arsene's Arsenal scouts were tapped up and left for richer pickings, so things aren't as easy now as they once were.
  
  At Arsenal we don't as yet have a youth academy of the caliber of Ajax or La Masier the system we have has been producing results but its only now that the real fruits of this system will begin to show those results. As they have in Jack Wiltshire. More should follow as players leaving our young academy impress those thinking of joining, it should act as an insentive.
  
  What I'm trying to say is that Arsenal with Wenger aren't copying Barca. And even Barca have, in the passed not always stayed true to the concepts layed down by Croyff. (Different chairmen panic-ed I think and attempted to follow Real's route and buy their way to success, I type while remembering them buy Petit & Overmars from us for loads of money). The one constant at Barca has been Croyff's continued influence that kicks in whenever a chairman deviates and the fans backing of JC over the various chairmen.
  
  I think Arsene has set a revolution in place at Arsenal, that may indeed not come to full fruition until his successor is in place. Nevertheless I still trust in Arsene to make the changes we need to make in the team. Although I repeat we don't have any right to think that because we are a big club we have a right to win even a paper cup.

• 31-May-2011 15:09 | | richie
  

  Also Iron Man I think as supporters of the club we should have high expectations. But we should also have realistic expectations, Arsene pointed out that we can't as a club buy players for £50M. There are now those ranged against us who have massive resorces, so things will only become more difficult. Could it be that the only way to combat those massive resorces is to raise a team that have been playing together for years "A la Barca"? Its only a thought.

• 31-May-2011 15:16 | | richie
  

  Just noticed TLG makes the same point below, about raising players together.

• 31-May-2011 17:18 | | richie  - You too modest Muk
  

  Muk I remember you saying that the only reason we beat Manu'er was they didn't turn up for once (that it was only a blip). We weren't that good, it was just Manu'er were rubbish for once. Isn't that what ML is bringing up?

• 31-May-2011 21:19 | | jack  - bye bye
  

  Is this the AKBvision site . Whats it like to be terminally ill.

• 31-May-2011 22:07 | | Iron Man
  

  Hmmm. Richie, really insightful post there and it seems as though from what you are saying, the influences from Ajax through to Barca are all somehow intertwined. I've always been fascinated by the dutch and always been baffled that such a tiny nation can produce so many quality footballers in abundance time after time. Cruyff subsequently taking that blueprint with him to Barcelona is an encouraging sign that the ideology can be replicated but seemingly through those who have 'lived' it.
  
  Can it simply be copied or does it need someone from that inner sanctum? If it indeed a case of the latter, then would Wenger's master plan get a major kick start by taking advice or employing the services of someone who has been educated through this system.... say for example, a certain Dennis Bergkamp?

• 31-May-2011 22:20 | | Iron Man
  

  Not one Arsenal fan ever suggested spending £50m on one player. Methinks Wenger was being a little mischievous when he made that comment knowing we'd all agree with him.
  
  High expectations and realistic expectations go hand in hand. The club is a superpower and as such, a realistic expectation for one of the top 3/4 teams in the country is not go without honours for such long periods.
  
  I've got nothing against raising a team if it's done well/done right. If we go down this route, obviously the team needs stick together in order to grow together. HOWEVER, we are more than likely about to lose the fulcrum of the whole project in Fabregas. At which point, Wenger is back to square one before completion of his grand plan. 'Project youth' had Cesc at it's core and without him, there is a risk the whole thing collapses like a house of cards. He is the heartbeat and it's clear that at times he was pretty much carrying the team on his shoulders - far too much pressure on a young man. If/when he goes, who is able to step into his shoes? Who in the current squad is a ready-made replacement? Or are we waiting another 6 years? What happens if/when they want to leave?

• 31-May-2011 22:32 | | Man United Killer
  

  Of course we weren't that good.Did you seen the stats of the game?when was the last time we beat Man U convincingly and vice versa.I am sure you will struggle to find the former easily.
  But the later is pretty easy to come up with...Lets face it,we have not beaten teams the way we ought to and if you dont see that, you really need a complete visual makeover...You might be happy with it but I am not happy at being second best to Man United the the rest...The club has grown and so should our ambition.second best is not an option..but alas,it is at our club.our manager is fine with that...by the way,did you have a chance to see the Barca-Rubin game I posted for you?

• 31-May-2011 22:34 | | Man United Killer
  

  Who is asking that we sign a player for 50 million.why are you twisting the words of the section of the Gooner faithful who want signings?Does asking the club to sign world class players amount to asking the club to spend stupid money?

• 31-May-2011 22:40 | | richie
  

  Guess what? Ajax finally at long last returned to Winning way this season by going back to their roots. They've not won anything much since they embarked on a route that took them away from their fan base, which included a series of different managers and they stopped playing total football. After firing ex spud manager Martin Jole half way through the season while mid-table 12pts from the top, they appointed Frank De Bore an ex-player who was part of the very successful Ajax team of the 80's. This by the way had been continually called for by none other than the great JC (no not the one nailed to a bit of wood) the other one who started the Barca revolution.

• 31-May-2011 22:45 | | richie  - Why argue then?
  

  So ML was right in what he said Muk.

• 31-May-2011 23:59 | | richie
  

  On that we can certainly agree. Way too much pressure is placed on Cesc. I've not been in favor of building the team around one player since we did it with Thierry, look at what happens when Cesc doesn't play Arsenal doesn't play. I made the $50k statement because there are still some of our own saying, all we need to do is spend spend and spend a little more. I wanted to remind everyone that buying players for big bucks or small doesn't mean success. For me its all about building a team not buying one.
  
  For me Manu'er this season were full of worker ants most wouldn't find their way into any top 4 team but they did the job they were asked to do well week after week. I don't want our team built around one player, I want quality in depth. Even when the team was built around TDH there were others who could pick up the baton if he dropped it. Bergy, Pires, Vieria, even Freddy.
  
  Who steps up when Cesc is out? Not Shava or Theo,nor Abou, thus far not Nasri and Jack still needs time. We get linked to loads of players but the ones we actually need might not be obvious. I'm also in favor of some promotions from within.
  
  I'm sure everybody has their wish list of those we'd like to see join but I only want additions that are genuinely going to improve the squad long term. Which means I prefer buying young rather than old, and I prefer personalities over experience. Young Paddy V was a winner without experience, who needs the finished article when you have a young personality with fire in his belly. We've missed personalities a little fire of late.
  
  My wish list unlike many would start at the front not at the back, with a first class finisher to partner RvP, another defensive mid as cover for Song who could also slot in beside him when we need a more defensive middle, and another attacking midfield playmaker, for when Cesc doesn't play.

• 01-Jun-2011 00:07 | | richie  - IMHO it rightly is
  

  AKB = Gooner (until AW is no longer our beloved manager)

• 01-Jun-2011 00:18 | | richie
  

  No Muk I didn't see the Rubin- Barca game that Barca lost because I would've had to have had my eye closed. When I dream I dream in red and white not claret & blue. I might dream of Barca losing but my dream involves us beating Barca not playing Mourinho style negative crap but old Arsenal style fast attacking football.

• 01-Jun-2011 00:23 | | MeanLean
  

  Interesting that the more this conversations goes on, the more we all seem to be agreeing.
  
  It seems as simple as
  
  1) We are rebuilding the club the correct way
  2) It is good for the future that we are financially secure
  3) We have most of the elements in place to make a good team
  4) We need to bring in quality to supplement what we have.
  
  If we can do all of the above then there is no reason why we shouldn't be pushing further for trophies.
  
  Richie,
  
  I loved the post about the Barca, Ajax and German history. Good stuff. I remember Wenger speaking about his love for German football as he was growing up. How they passed from one end of the pitch to the other at speed. I would love to see how that team played now to see where he got his inspiration from.
  
  Do you all regard Barcelona as the best club side that you have ever watched?

• 01-Jun-2011 01:44 | | dkgooner
  

  Well, the Real team with Puskas, Di Stefano etc was pretty amazing - but now I'm really showing my age.

• 01-Jun-2011 01:47 | | dkgooner
  

  And then there was the Arsenal team of 1969/70, with Jon Sammels.

• 01-Jun-2011 02:18 | | Man United Killer
  

  what an embarrassing comment!

• 01-Jun-2011 02:22 | | Man United Killer
  

  what is your point?All you said has nothing to do with me giving you an answer to a question that you asked me.You enjoy circumventing dont you?you have been doing it for a while.The only thing is that,I have been ignoring it for as long as you have been doing it.

• 01-Jun-2011 02:40 | | richie  - ML Re Barca history and our direction
  

  Reluctantly yes! Especially with the circle now complete with Guardiola as manager. I think they are even better than the great total footballing side that Ajax became in their prime. I still hate their arrogant presidents (the bastards) for thinking they have the right to tap up our players. Its OK for us to do it to them but the idea that they think they can do it to us is obscene to me.
  
  The comparisons with both Barca and Ajax of old is something I feel is valid because undoubted both Croyff and Arsene were influenced by Borrussia of old. There are two distinct things that are important about BM. I think Wenger took one thing and Croyff another. First they played total football i.e. the Central Defender might start moving forward and end up as a Center Forward others would fall back into the CD's place.
  So all the inter changing of positions that became total football.
  
  The thing that differs is that when the old BM attacked they did it at breakneck speed. Turning defence into attack. Remember how we played when we played scoring with 3 or 4 passes box to box in seconds. With BM It was a cross between that and the total football of Ajax. I think that that is what we've been missing lately. Fast attacking football. The point is to play that style we need the personel. We've got the Greyhound in Theo but he would need to move and play centrally and his finishing would need to improve massively. Shava who's box to box speed isn't great to put it mildly wouldn't get a place. BM weren't patient waiting for the right opening like Barca.

• 01-Jun-2011 02:48 | | richie
  

  That one I remember, as I said before I saw Croyff and Neeskins at Highbury with Ajax of Amsterdam in the inter-city-fair-cup

• 01-Jun-2011 02:57 | | richie  - Puskas Di Stefano and the Dinosaurs
  

  I think I remember doing that at school it was somewhere between the Dinosaur's nailing men to bits of wood and WW1 no?

• 01-Jun-2011 03:00 | | richie
  

  It might embarrass you Muk but in Highbury its called loyalty. If you think back its something we used to share with the Cop.

• 01-Jun-2011 14:49 | | Paul N
  

  Well Barcelona and Arsenal dont have the same situation for they have an unlimited amount of money to buy the best players.
  The youth have come through but some big money purchases were made, the likes of which Arsenal cannot or could not afford.
  
  In order to buy these 4 or 5 world class players, you must have that kind of money and the players must want to come to your team.
  
  It would be good to show some respect to a man that with his CURRENT squad has given the best teams all they can handle.
  
  The team is close but we dont have unlimited resources and every good player in the country wanting to play for us.
  
  A lack of perspective in your views.

• 01-Jun-2011 15:10 | | Man United Killer
  

  It's not called loyalty it's called 'human worshipping'..you are an Arsene Wenger supporter not an Arsenal supporter.
  Even the COP expressed their dissatisfaction about the direction in which their club was being streered from about 2 or 3 seasons ago.Are they not loyal then?

• 01-Jun-2011 15:14 | | Man United Killer  - TL,Richie and ML
  

  You,Richie and ML have a habit of inverting whatever I say.I am going to say this for the last time.I have said that it would be silly to say Wenger has not done well for the club.However,a club of this stature and level of ambition should always look to improve.Now there have been glaring problems with this team that have lingered on for years.I say either Wenger sorts it out or he walks.But that will not happen.He is saving Arsenal LLC a lot of money.
  This club talks about tradition.The current crop of management are only concerned with the financial tradtional and not the winning tradition.
  Its a darn shame.Since when did coming forth become a satisfactory feat for our dear club.

• 02-Jun-2011 01:50 | | richie
  

  Well said PN!

• 02-Jun-2011 02:04 | | richie
  

  Barca went through many changes that were brought about through internal fighting about the clubs direction. The puppet master pulling the strings eventually won out and in came someone raised from the start in the Barca way. During the in fighting managers changed when they changed chairmen, Croyff in his capacity on the board didn't agree with the changes and each time he criticised the chairmans choice, the fans eventually backed him and the managers were gone. Why did the fans back Croyff? They recognised he was the man who started everything and trusted him, remembering what he'd achieved.

• 02-Jun-2011 04:07 | | richie  - Muk I wasn't even in this but..........
  

  Least we forget. Our clubs stature and our fans level of ambition are only where they now because of one man's ambition for our club. Talk about inverting Muk I've always imagined you were a shape-shifter (in the nicest possible way of course) my brother Gooner

• 02-Jun-2011 04:18 | | richie
  

  3 seasons ago when Barca had already won the group stage was when they beat Manu'er the 1st time. That hardly compares to us beating them this season.

• 02-Jun-2011 04:27 | | richie
  

  Yes! Cesc has been away from his home for long enough to be very homesick. Even if we'd won the league this year I'm not sure that that would change things. I know Cesc loves Arsenal, but I think he loves his home, his country, his family, and his friends more.
  
  I actually think that its not winning thats kept him here. Cesc is a winner he doesn't wanna leave without winning something. If he wins I think he'd want to go home straight away, because he'd have fulfilled his goal.

• 02-Jun-2011 04:31 | | richie
  

  Do you mean like when Barca sold their best player Figo to their biggest rivals Real who then with him went on a winning streak?

• 02-Jun-2011 04:36 | | richie
  

  I'd love the master (Dennis) to return to us in any capacity.

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